What is the population of Hereford?

[bobby47]

The Council of Boston, Lincolnshire have recently applied to Central Government for funding to enable them to cope with their 'hidden' population. This Council have calculated that they have seven thousand resident migrants from the European Union and a further ten thousand that are not registered on the electoral roll. They call this ten thousand, their 'hidden population.
They've arrived at this figure of ten thousand because of registrations at public service bodies and obvious places such as GP Surgeries.
The Central Government have told Boston Council to prove that the hidden population is resident in Boston and they'll be given funding. Boston Council, like Hereford Council have recently carried out a 'who's living in your house' census and not surprisingly this hidden population has not been discovered, which means Boston must continue providing public services without any additional funding.
The hidden population is explained by Boston Council as homes that are occupied by ten or twelve who live cheaply, share the rent and costs which enable them to keep more of their money.
Good economics you'd think! And they are good economics if you are the taker rather than the giver. If you are the giver as Boston Council are, then its not good economics at all. It's very bad economics.
We in Hereford have exactly the same problem and it may be equally as bad. It's my understanding that our electoral roll shows the presence of around five thousand EU migrants in our County.
What do we have to do to discover our 'hidden population'? I know of lots of houses in close proximity to mine that contain huge numbers of migrants living in the one house. In close proximity to where I live social housing has been provided to Bulgarians and Romanians and these dwellings are full of people who form part of our hidden population.
The Council have recently carried out their local census by posting their letter to homes across Hereford asking, 'who lives in your house'? It's madness. Do they really think that seventeen migrants living in a three bed semi that's managed by Hereford Housing are going to respond and say exactly who is resident there. Of course they are not. Because its illegal and it shouldn't be happening. But it is happening. It's happening all over the City and it wouldn't surprise me if our 'hidden population' is as high as Boston's.
Of course, the last people to acknowledge this issue will be our overwhelmed public services who are spending tens of thousands of pounds each month providing translation services enabling our 'hidden population' to carry out their good economic policy of living cheap, living hidden and prospering. The public service bubble is still clinging onto the shiney, happy and clappy New Labour Multi Culturalism mantra that allways denies that we have a problem being able to absorb these astonishing numbers of people who form our hidden population.

[dippyhippy]

If there is more funding available from central government, then surely it makes financial sense to have this information?

Or am I being a bit simplistic.??

Do landlords not have a duty to know who is living in their properties?

I have to say, cramming folk into houses like that is appalling - its no way to live. Certainly its not how people would choose to live ,I'm sure. Life is such a struggle for so many these days, and there really are no quick fixes.

[bobby47]

Dippy, it's a mix of problems. The migrants want to make as much money as possible to send home and many choose to live like this. We've a huge shortfall in available housing in both the private sector and the public social housing. The private landlords take advantage of this and exploit this area of business which pushes up the rents. Then, because of a lack of will by the Council to investigate this fairly open and widespread problem, the problem becomes out of control and a 'hidden population' develops. As for the public social housing, where properties are given over to migrants, they are then opened up to abuse. Tenants, take in huge numbers of lodgers, the council house gets filled and the tenant suddenly finds he's putting out twenty bin bags instead of my one. And round and round it goes and throughout it all, we pick up the bill for a vast number of people who, though paying their wage taxes, contribute nothing toward our public services because they ain't paying any Council Tax.

And all the time, the Council and Hereford Housing sit on the problem, doing nothing because its all been placed in the 'to difficult to deal with' basket and as long as there are no reports of anti social behaviour and some other box ticking excercise, then nobody cares a jot.

Meanwhile, Im sat in my front room at three in the morning listening to a group of ten gathered around a back garden fire, drinking, enjoying a barbecue and singing along to a strange song that reached number one in some far and distant land who's language and culture is completely foreign to me.

Can you get anybody in a position of authority to say, 'heck, I understand your problem'. Not a chance. In fact, while I boil away stewing over the madness of it all, if I don't get a reply from all the Councillors that have read this, Im throwing me bloody toys out of my pram and withdrawing my labour.

[Ubique]

I can understand your concerns Bobby , Landlords have both a legal and moral responsibility to their tenants - this also included working with the Council and the Benefit Agency . I do wonder how many of the residents are claiming Housing Benefits from HCC for the same address in the full knowledge that it takes so long to be detected and if found out they will just move on to green pastures.

[Colin James]

I can understand your concerns Bobby , Landlords have both a legal and moral responsibility to their tenants - this also included working with the Council and the Benefit Agency . I do wonder how many of the residents are claiming Housing Benefits from HCC for the same address in the full knowledge that it takes so long to be detected and if found out they will just move on to green pastures.

 

Well to be fair my gf is Polish and she has lived in the UK for over eight year and has ALWAYS worked and paid her taxes, she certainly does not send money home, I don't think you could afford too. She has never claimed benefit's either, not sure she could to be honest.

 

I appreciate what you are saying about a lot of people living in one house, we have Romanians living next door and there seem to be 2 couples living there but it is a 4 bed house, only problems I have are the amount of cars parked and visiting.

 

My gf has a Polish friend who rents out rooms to about 4 single people and she has to have special insurance and all the landlord facilities in place but to be honest this is no different to the landlord who has an 8 bed house in Whitecross that he has turned into bedsits.

 

All the Polish people that I know have jobs and before anyone rants on about "they have taken our jobs"! These jobs were ALWAYS there!  Half the long term lazy sods in this country simply did not want them!

 

The other thing that annoy's me is that people often assume that if a person is East European then they must be Polish, which most of the time they are usually Romanian, Lithuanian, Portuguese or Russian. 

 

I work in security and in my experience if a nightclub holds 2000 people, once we hit that number we tell people we are full, which unfortunately the UK government have yet to work out! We need to start saying no more we are full! So if 10 families leave another 10 can enter the country.

 

If you think that it's bad now wait until the New Year when all the gypsies arrive! 

[bobby47]

You can't get anyone to say a bloody thing. Everyone's to bloody frightened to get their heads out of the sand and simply talk about these things.

Look back twelve months ago, it was the poor Polish people getting the blame for the madness of the EU. Now, because of bloody Blunkett and Jack Straw, its now the poor old Roma people. The Roma! A minority group of people that Hitler tried to exterminate and throughout the decades have consistently been persecuted by most European Countries. These people are disliked by just about everyone and then they wonder why some Roma perhaps involve themselves in crime. If I was Roma and I'd had a taste of their history, there's every chance I'd be involved in some criminal activity.

We simply can't discuss things sensibly. We have to demonise a group and blame someone. I don't care a single jot about someone's ethnicity, I simply want to know how many people are here and who's paying what for our prized and much cherished public services.

And what do our leaders say, 'bloody nothing'. Im serious, Im pumped and charged. If I don't get some response from our elected leaders, Im withdrawing my labour and transmit my codswallop elsewhere.

[John Harrington]

I'm glad you clarified your point a bit with that last post Bobby because I did think on first reading your initial post that it was a bit xenophobic, which I instinctively thought was most unlike you. I put it down to a rough morning after a late night; Hurley and Warne up and down your drainpipe like squirrels most of the night and then just when they've finally buggered off and you've sat down to check teletext with a cup of cocoa, the sloshed Bulgarians start singing about the moonlight on the banks of the Struma River. 

I, like Colin and no doubt quite a few of us, have a couple of really good friends who are Polish and Bulgarian etc (the Bulgarian is of Turkish origin just to add more to the mix). They work exceptionally hard, they are intelligent, their kids are Herefordian born and bred and they have absolutely no money to send home to their folks in the east (much to their shame). They pay their national taxes out of their wages from which universal healthcare entitlement is derived and they pay the same VAT as everyone else as the cruise round Tesco, fighting me for the yellow stickered goods in the reduced cabinet (well actually, they leave me with obvious pity to scrabble around the chiller cabinet on my own). Council tax pays for local planning, transport, highways, police, fire, libraries, leisure and recreation, rubbish collection and disposal, environmental health and trading standards. It does not pay for education or healthcare. That is paid for out of the wages of the almost exclusively employed East Europeans. As far as I know (but I must admit I'm not entirely sure) social housing does not comes out of Council Tax either. Your point though, I think, is that Hereford suffers from being underpaid by central government to cover education, healthcare and social housing because our migrants (and a lot of them, especially the Poles consider themselves immigrants not migrants) are unrecorded because a correct audit is not being made on the number of workers in the county. I can see the logic of that and I agree with your criticism of local agencies who don't have the will to enforce registration and health and safety issues regarding overcrowding. In my mind though, it's the landlords and the Council who are failing to do their job (which you pointed out yourself).

Now, that extra central funding wouldn't necessarily go to the Eastern Europeans in any case because they tend to be in employment and renting rather than using social housing (Council stats bear this out I am told) but I do see your point.  If you consider what Council Tax does pay for though; planning, transport, highways, police, fire, libraries, leisure and recreation, rubbish collection and disposal, environmental health and trading standards, we can strike most of that from the argument straight away. Our planners, transport, and highways are not likely to perform any better than they already are, even with an extra dose of dosh. Our Libraries the Council are trying to effectively abolish and the East Europeans do not regularly use them (although they did hog the computers in the Hereford Library until smartphones became the norm). Leisure and recreation I'm not sure about to be honest but I think you have a point when it comes to refuse, police and fire services. They are all services that are hard pressed and a proper audit of people living in the county would no doubt help increase Council Tax Revenue by restricting overcrowding and forcing more people to pay more Council Tax.

Although I'm not sure you mean our boys in blue (or green for the dustbin men) when you say, "I simply want to know how many people are here and who's paying what for our prized and much cherished public services" . If you mean education and the NHS then the answer, as I already mentioned, is the working East Europeans are paying for it themselves...but as you say, we may not be getting that allocation back into the county if the Council is not recording exactly who is in the county.

And I do sympathise with you on the garden  picnic front. I know a few of my Polish friends have often wished themselves that the weekend vodka fuelled singing, laughing, occasional fisticuffs was moderated but they say this is a by product of a lot of people living in one house generally. According to West Mercia Police themselves (who are funded by Council Tax) the Eastern Europeans commit considerably less crimes than the average equal head of population, especially when you consider that they are normally in the demographic (young and male) that is more likely to cause anti-social and indulge in criminal behaviour (apart from drink driving)!

I suggest a phone call to the Council noise abatement team would be a good idea when the party carries on too long Bobby. They have actually now, after 30 years, got a team that works after 5pm weekdays and on the weekends (believe or not they only worked office hours Mon-Friday until about 3 years ago!!

I love your posts, don't think I'm being critical of your views, I think I just read it wrong first time round.

[dippyhippy]

You are not alone in being on the receiving end of pitying glances whilst in the supermarket John, I endure this regularly whilst attempting to use the self service till.

And should the security guard from Sainsbury's be reading this - I wear a poncho, a very nice one,(hand knitted and fairly traded)  I am not a shoplifter and I do not appreciate being trailed up and down the aisles!!!

This also attracts glances - but of the highly suspicious variety!!

[megilleland]

I can understand your concerns Bobby , Landlords have both a legal and moral responsibility to their tenants - this also included working with the Council and the Benefit Agency . I do wonder how many of the residents are claiming Housing Benefits from HCC for the same address in the full knowledge that it takes so long to be detected and if found out they will just move on to green pastures.

 

And also with regard to fire safety. Here is what Devon and Somerset Fire Service have produced for landlords.

 

Fire safety advice for landlords, managing agents, private dwellings, blocks of flats and owners of houses in multiple occupation and social housing. 

[Ubique]

You are not alone in being on the receiving end of pitying glances whilst in the supermarket John, I endure this regularly whilst attempting to use the self service till.

And should the security guard from Sainsbury's be reading this - I wear a poncho, a very nice one,(hand knitted and fairly traded)  I am not a shoplifter and I do not appreciate being trailed up and down the aisles!!!

This also attracts glances - but of the highly suspicious variety!!

Hey Dippy , perhaps the "Security Officer" wants to become " The Whitecross Crusader " and he only lacking ( he thinks ) a cape to complete his uniform . He only has his eye on your Fairtrade poncho to complete his uniform.

As an aside , having stood in the Foyer of the Store for the Poppy Appeal I am amazed at the SO apparent lack of training , the alarms on the exit doors are for every going off and from what I witnessed he was only picking on little old grandmas to search their shopping.

[dippyhippy]

I have no idea what he thinks I have secreted away beneath my poncho - a crusty baguette and an iceberg lettuce perhaps, I haven't a clue!

But I can assure him now, no item has ever been hidden beneath my poncho and left the store without being paid for!!

[bobby47]

Hello John, I've just read your thread relating to this topic and I note your initial concern that my comments 'may' have been in someway xenophobic.

Please don't think Im attacking you John because I ain't. Not at all,,but your initial thought that I 'may be xenophobic' because of what and how I'd presented a view is at the heart of all that's become wrong within our society. It's no wonder I can't get a Councillor to take a leap of faith and comment upon this issue because of your honestly and widely held 'first thought' that concluded that in some way I may be a bigot or xenophobic because of a piece of writing. And it's not just you John. You are a part of a huge influential way of thinking that excludes any thoughts or open questions that relate to this social issue.

Im not for one moment attacking you. I respect you, admire you and I enjoy reading you but you should have no doubts about me and what i think and I refuse to wriggle on a hook and defend my opinion. I see this vast movement of people from within the European Union as the biggest man made mistake since World War Two.

I reject anything that demonises a vulnerable people like The Roma. That points an accusing finger at the Islamic people of our country and truly, I couldn't care less about someone's ethnicity. It's of no concern to me. Truly, I couldn't care a jot. However, I do care about the impact this vast movement of people has had upon my Country. The European Union is essentially made up of two groups, the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. We in the West are the 'haves' and those in the East are the 'have nots'. We in the West don't want what the 'have nots' have got whilst the 'have nots' in the East want what we have and I don't blame them. If I were in their shoes I'd be doing the exact same thing.

The problem for my part is a simple and straightforward economic issue. The giving and the taking is a dysfunctional arrangement and its simply economic madness. I want my Country out of this badly flawed social and economic man made disaster before all our nations hard fought for public services are lost to my grandchildren.

If my view is truly and genuinely xenophobic, then so be it. It's a label Im going to have to carry with me. Oddly enough, I ain't even a UKIP supporter. I've voted Labour all my life and when they form another Labour Party and rid me of the madness that was New Labour and the lies built upon the Blair years, I'll vote Labour again. Whatsmore, I don't actually want to leave Europe. If there were proper caps upon the movement of people's to the United Kingdom, and it protected the future of my descendants and it stopped the feeling, 'the United Kingdom PLC' is being asset stripped, then I'd gladly sign up to that.

This is how I feel John and I ain't apologising for any of it. I don't consider myself to be xenophobic or any other thing that implies that Im in some way less of a man than I should be.

I don't want to be ruled over by some mandarins from Brussels who seem intent upon recreating a Soviet style Super State. I want people from all over the EU to come here, be happy, be prosperous and provide a positive outcome for us, them and their home Country. I simply want some control. I want to know who's here and who ain't here and if Hereford does have a 'hidden population' then I want to know why this has happened and what are our political leaders going to do about it.

Once again John, the last thing on my mind is to set myself upon a collision course with you. This is how I feel and I refuse to feel badly about any view that I now hold.

My very warmest regards John.

[John Harrington]

Hi Bobby, I'm not offended by your right to reply and I don't feel you're attacking me. I see your point and you've a right to express it. I think I am just slightly (over) defensive on criticism of immigrants because very often people fail to mention how much they actually contribute to the economy. Farmers I deliver to around Hereford say to me the East Europeans were a god send and that they would and could not be as successful and prosperous if it wasn't for them.And we all came from somewhere at some time. As the descendant of a Mick docker I'm concious of that! Still, I accept that a completely open door is problematic when more people want to come in the go out.

I think I got the wrong vibe from your language and didn't look at what you were actually saying. Peace n love Bobster!

[bobby47]

Thank you so much John. It's good to know that we are ok with this. Like you, Im the grandson of immigrants from across the Mersey and half my family are buried in the Catholic plots while the other half are beneath the other side. I know exactly how you feel and I feel exactly the same. When Blunkett decided to say what he said about The Roma it suddenly becomes completely ok to demonise a minority group, the gates of the media open up and off we go again, blaming people instead of grasping the nettle and talking sensibly about this issue.

Thank you replying John.

[Biomech]

These jobs were ALWAYS there!  Half the long term lazy sods in this country simply did not want them!

 

 

 

This I agree with. However there are other factors of course, such as government subsidies for wages which incentivise businesses into employing migrant workers and, as I've mentioned, I have seen first hand the change from summer workers spending money and permanant migrant workers sending money "home".

 

Colin is also correct, that not all EE's are Polish. There are many Lithuanians and Slovakians too.

 

Maybe this comes back to Bobby's point about a general census of people, who they are and where they are from / their UK status. 

 

But surely you HAVE to wonder, why the influx of immigrants is so high from Eastern European (and Indian) countries when the EU also incorporates Spain, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden and Denmark. You never hear a peep out of them. You can argue standard of living, but there are northern EU states that have things like higher taxation than the UK. Not to mention, the standard of living argument only backs up the notion (and evidence) that migrant workers from the East would be sending money back home.

 

I have no problem with legit, immigrants. People who immigrate to the UK. But there is nothing wrong with putting a cap in place - even per country. Nothing AT ALL wrong with that.

 

But as Ubique(?)  mentioned above, people are too scared to bring these topics up for fear of being branded a racist.

[bobby47]

And just to add to my moans and groans, there's a couple of million people displaced by the horrors of Syria and we, the great Great Britain, ain't given a safe haven to a single family from that region. Why? Because of the madness of the EU that's seen our Country overwhelmed by uncontrolled movement of people. We're so full and out of control we cannot do the right thing and help our fellow man.

We used to be in a position to do the right thing and help those less fortunate than ourselves but now, because of the global market and our slavish devotion to this crazy global market, we've prostituted ourselves and done nothing. Shame on us. All in the name of the EU and being hamstrung by their open border policies.

I'll shut up now!

[Colin James]

Hello John, I've just read your thread relating to this topic and I note your initial concern that my comments 'may' have been in someway xenophobic.

Please don't think Im attacking you John because I ain't. Not at all,,but your initial thought that I 'may be xenophobic' because of what and how I'd presented a view is at the heart of all that's become wrong within our society. It's no wonder I can't get a Councillor to take a leap of faith and comment upon this issue because of your honestly and widely held 'first thought' that concluded that in some way I may be a bigot or xenophobic because of a piece of writing. And it's not just you John. You are a part of a huge influential way of thinking that excludes any thoughts or open questions that relate to this social issue.

Im not for one moment attacking you. I respect you, admire you and I enjoy reading you but you should have no doubts about me and what i think and I refuse to wriggle on a hook and defend my opinion. I see this vast movement of people from within the European Union as the biggest man made mistake since World War Two.

I reject anything that demonises a vulnerable people like The Roma. That points an accusing finger at the Islamic people of our country and truly, I couldn't care less about someone's ethnicity. It's of no concern to me. Truly, I couldn't care a jot. However, I do care about the impact this vast movement of people has had upon my Country. The European Union is essentially made up of two groups, the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. We in the West are the 'haves' and those in the East are the 'have nots'. We in the West don't want what the 'have nots' have got whilst the 'have nots' in the East want what we have and I don't blame them. If I were in their shoes I'd be doing the exact same thing.

The problem for my part is a simple and straightforward economic issue. The giving and the taking is a dysfunctional arrangement and its simply economic madness. I want my Country out of this badly flawed social and economic man made disaster before all our nations hard fought for public services are lost to my grandchildren.

If my view is truly and genuinely xenophobic, then so be it. It's a label Im going to have to carry with me. Oddly enough, I ain't even a UKIP supporter. I've voted Labour all my life and when they form another Labour Party and rid me of the madness that was New Labour and the lies built upon the Blair years, I'll vote Labour again. Whatsmore, I don't actually want to leave Europe. If there were proper caps upon the movement of people's to the United Kingdom, and it protected the future of my descendants and it stopped the feeling, 'the United Kingdom PLC' is being asset stripped, then I'd gladly sign up to that.

This is how I feel John and I ain't apologising for any of it. I don't consider myself to be xenophobic or any other thing that implies that Im in some way less of a man than I should be.

I don't want to be ruled over by some mandarins from Brussels who seem intent upon recreating a Soviet style Super State. I want people from all over the EU to come here, be happy, be prosperous and provide a positive outcome for us, them and their home Country. I simply want some control. I want to know who's here and who ain't here and if Hereford does have a 'hidden population' then I want to know why this has happened and what are our political leaders going to do about it.

Once again John, the last thing on my mind is to set myself upon a collision course with you. This is how I feel and I refuse to feel badly about any view that I now hold.

My very warmest regards John.

 I am definitely on the same page as you bobby and believe it or not but so is my gf. Your reply is a spot on in fairness to you, thank you for taking the time to put it into words because that is very difficult sometimes. 

[bobby47]

Thank you Colin. I do appreciate your kind words. And what of the Countries of East Europe who's best and finest are leaving their homeland for money. We have qualified Doctors, Civil Engineers, and a guy I fish with is a former University Professor from Poland and they are all picking fruit, taxi driving and processing chicken. It's madness.

These people, many of which are highly educated are picking bloody fruit for the minimum wage. What impact is this going to have on the future prosperity of these Countries who've been abandoned by their best and finest. While they are stuck picking fruit and unable to exploit their education here then they, we and their Mother country lose. Education of the youth is the most important piece of wealth that any nation can possess and this bloody crazy EU model is destroying it all for a short sighted, short term economic gain.

And still no Councillor dares touch this issue!!!! Well, they can all get stuffed. Im done.

[jnorris235]

Not everyone, bobby47, is on this forum all the time. So no toys out of your pram, or you know you'll be done for littering with intent. As you know, I'm fresh off the Christmas tree, but having done the electoral roll job of going round those who illegally (£2000 fine) have not filled in their form each year I have met a lot of foreigners (I can call them that can't I?). In the rural area my experience is that people like the Poles, for instance because none else wants those jobs (apparently you mustn't mix them up with East Europeans). And they work hard. Some get exploited but still work hard.

 

What I never understood was that whatever I spoke to the electoral roll office about the fact that the Council central money is worked out on the number of people on the electoral roll, I could never get them to correct their records, or catch these people. Wasn't worth it, they said. ??? Excuse me? It's your job! But then in this last election I couldn't get a single one of them out of their office to ask a pub to be the Poll Sation again as usual, or visit an impossible to use (John Jones' own words) Polling Station that had no disabled access whatsoever!

 

I'm not UKIP either, I just want someone with primary school arithmetic skills to actually count who comes into this country! You know, maybe a computer or something? I always get held up for hours on the ferry to France having my passport scanned - the figures are there surely? Tesco's knows exactly what you've bought, how come these figures aren't there somewhere? Or will it cost another billion to devise a software solution to actually count stuff?

 

So - what's all this repetitive "No, Councillor dares touch this issue?" I get peed off with this constant Councillor bashing. Why don't you use the Freedom of Information Act - I may be wrong but I thought that anyone could do that. Or at least ask a specific question of me that I can put to the correct Officer and demand an answer?

 

The power is in your hands....so?

Forget the whinging, you make an excellent point - the question is what - this?

>>Exactly what is the population of Herefordshire, if not born here when did they arrive in this county, and where from? Yorkshire, Poland, Scotland, Rumania, it doesn't matter.<<

 

Is that it?Tell me!!

[bobby47]

Keep your powder dry Jon and your wand in its holster. I'll moan, groan and throw my bloody toys out of my bloody perambulator whenever I wish. I lost sixty bloody quid at three card brag yesterday and I had an Ace, King, Queen flush so being slapped by you is of no consequence to me this evening. You can have your assertive moment in the light at my expense. It's free. A gift from me because of some shifty guy who's now making merry with my money. Mind, don't be thinking Im some verbal punchbag there for you and anyone else to slap me about. I bite back and I'll be damned if I sit back, say, 'thank you very much' a second time.

That said, thanks for taking the time to respond, albeit, you've said very little and used a lot of words in a sequence to say it. Im bloody done. I've got the 'tappers', an ailment that affects stupid bloggers like me who've shovelled out to much nonsensical rubbish.

As for you and your political future, good luck! You've earned it and good luck to the IOC.

My warmest regards to all. Good bloody night!

[jnorris235]

Hey! Only trying to match you, but you know things that I don't. You know what youre talking about, too. Seriously, was that the question? I'd love to find out, and will try cos your point was well made. Ill be gentler next time with you, or maybe just let the brakes off your pram when the traffic lights stay on green forever if Colin gets his way! But just trying to jostle some ideas out because you're not the only one that just shouts at councillors! I did that for years, and certainly would never vote for one, til now. Feed me ideas and questions before I'm subsumed! Night for now, the pub beckons!

[Bill Thomas]

 I always get held up for hours on the ferry to France having my passport scanned - the figures are there surely? Tesco's knows exactly what you've bought, how come these figures aren't there somewhere? Or will it cost another billion to devise a software solution to actually count stuff?

 

I agree, these figures MUST be somewhere or easy enough to count people in or out of the UK