Baptist Church Drinkers ....

[Roger]

I wandered into town today and the usual drinkers' were camped on the wall swigging bottles/cans of that strong cider ..... In front of the Church ... Sat on the wall as the seats have been removed ..... I walked by an hour later and they were still there .... Commercial Road ... Not a good advert for Hereford .... 

 

This was approx. 13.45 and 14.45 btw so hardly out of hours for the people who should sort this out  ..... 

[Glenda Powell]

Thats probably because the church used to supply them with a meal, I don't think that happens now, but old habits die hard maybe they think if they stay there long enough the church will start serving meals again.

[Alex]

They are ALWAYS there! Druggies too, every time I go past there is usually a few drinkers or druggies there and it looks terrible.

[bobby47]

Enough already. Rather than demonise those who drink, I say society should be grateful that people like me drink to excess, pay huge levels of taxation and help recycle money within our fragile local economy.

And why not gather near a place of worship to drink? Our Lord and Saviour, the sweet loving Jesus often went on the pistol in Gallilee. He saw no wrong in it and if it was good enough for Jesus then its good enough for me. The Wedding of Canna? Mary, his Mam staggered up to him and said, 'the wines running out'. What's he do? He came up with his much celebrated miracle, changing the water into wine. Well, either that or he shot off up the road to the off licence. The Last Supper? He didn't hand out bloody water did he? No, more bloody wine! I reckon they were out of their faces for much of the time whilst trekking around Judea and were not to different to all the confused and bewildered people that are regularly to be found staggering around our once fair City.

Last Friday. I met the Mighty Grid Knocker in the Commercial. I had two pints of Lager. He had two large glasses of white. Twelve bloody quid straight back into our economy.

After we parted, I went up to The Barrels. I met the lads, got into a round and over a oeriod of six hours I contributed fifty quid to my drunken haze. Fifty quid of my money went across the bar straight back into our economy. Then, unable to swallow any more lager, I left the lads, staggered back to Commercial Road where I collapsed in the Charcoal Grill ordering a large mixed kebab. Eight pound fifty! Then I staggered home eating my kebab managing to feed my fat face and dripping chilli sause and Mayonaisse all over me coat. Dry cleaning bill for this garment. Ten pounds twenty.

Then, having got to my front door, I fell against my Ford Focus wing mirror and bloody bust it. Forty nine pounds including bloody vat. All this money and tax spent within our fragile economy and paid for by me. And what do I get for me bloody troubles?

I'll tell you. Folk moaning that Im a burden on society and I should be showered with legislation to prevent me sharing my wealth and helping my home economy recover from the madness of New bloody Labour.

I say, rather than single me out and shower me with criticism, I should be applauded whenever I leave my house to go on the pistol. They should say, 'thank you for paying all this tax. Keep up the good work. Drink wherever you wish. We appreciate it.'

[dippyhippy]

Bravo Bobby!

 

If we all followed your example, Herefords economy would be thriving!

 

Your Granny, God rest her soul, would be delighted to know that all those mornings spent at Sunday School have had such a positive impact on your life!

[Colin James]

I have teamed up with Paul Daykin from T4C and exchanged mutual links and offered any support the HV can offer, you will see their link (logo) on the right hand side of our main page.

 

CPTED - Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design

 

 

 

A very worthy cause. 

[Roger]

I have teamed up with Paul Daykin from T4C and exchanged mutual links and offered any support the HV can offer, you will see their link (logo) on the right hand side of our main page.

 

 

A very worthy cause. 

 

I appreciate the concept with that link ( + the Community Spirit is to be applauded) but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the area in front of the Church. It was actually quite welcoming with the benches that were there and it was quite handy for visitors who maybe wanted to eat a fish and chip lunch if the weather was ok. But it got too popular with the drunken hobo's and unfortunately the benches had to be removed. Maybe it's handy for cheap booze? Because they still gravitate there. The only way to sort that out is rigorous enforcement. I know that will just move them somewhere else but getting these drunks moved from a high profile location can't be that hard. 

[bobby47]

I've just walked past and yes, there are a huge group of young men and women who are gathered at this location drinking. From what I heard, these young people are not English and they've probably no idea of the laws relating to this issue.

Im guessing that they are a part of the growing number of migrants who've no home, no job and little likelihood of ever getting out of the rut they find themselves in. Perhaps if they understood the impact they were having on the way in which they were being perceived they'd drink somewhere else and abide by the rules.

Why don't the Police, the Council and anyone else who has a vested interest publicise this issue and let these people understand that we don't do this in Hereford. If they don't know and nobody is communicating with them, you can't blame them for getting on the pistol and numbing the pain of life with no job and no prospects of getting one.

Im guessing the Police now turn a blind eye to it all because its quite understandably seen as too much trouble to enforce. Whilst interpreter fees are high and they are having an impact upon public funds, it might help if they were employed to trudge around the City with the Police and tell them. If they don't know and nobody ever tells them then the problem ain't going to go away.

[Colin James]

I came past earlier this afternoon at 3.40pm and there were the usual 4 druggies who are always very loud, there were also 2 other sruffy looking guy's drinking cans of cider, ALL WERE ENGLISH.

[Guest Paul@T4CHereford]

As my first contribution to the Hereford Voice forums I will not go into too much detail but the issue of street drinking and drugs misuses and their impact upon the perceptions of those who live in, work in or visit is one I have studied since 2005. My specialist field is Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design and from my experience I could point to countless other examples of where the design of a location has created a crime or anti-social behaviour 'Hot spot'.

 

Since 2011 I have been offering recommendations based upon 'best practice' to deal with the issues such as those you refer to at the Baptist Church and I do know for a fact that Superintendent Powell of Hereford Police is currently exploring a variety of strategies and working with several agencies to deliver some long and sustainable solutions to the issues outside the church. Enforcement is therefore one option but this has to be measured in term of police resources and sustainability it may not be the most cost-effective.

 

To offer you a little more background I would invite you to view my website T4C and in particular the CPTED page which has examples of similar designs in other locations in the UK and further afield, which have created identical problems. As part of my research over the last three years I have spent a great deal of time mixing with street drinkers in Hereford and other towns and cities across the UK and what is clear to me is that any solution must be based on a clear understanding of what will deter those who drink in public.

 

In my experience the most common failing with the vast majority of solutions offered for this and other crime or anti-social behaviour issues is a lack of knowledge of what motivates and consequently what also deters, those who commit the offences. There is no great secret to ‘designing out crime’  it is simply the process of creating environments that are attractive to law-abiding citizens but hostile to criminals and those engaged in Anti-Social Behaviour.

 

Hopefully I will get an opportunity to offer some input on this and other issues in Hereford in 2014 and also to meet many more people who share my passion for positive change. I will be speaking to Colin to arrange an open meeting to introduce myself and the T4C concept and I would particularly be interested in meeting those who are yet to be convinced as to my motivations or credentials, as I am sure I will be able to reassure them on both counts.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin James]

As my first contribution to the Hereford Voice forums I will not go into too much detail but the issue of street drinking and drugs misuses and their impact upon the perceptions of those who live in, work in or visit is one I have studied since 2005. My specialist field is Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design and from my experience I could point to countless other examples of where the design of a location has created a crime or anti-social behaviour 'Hot spot'.

 

Since 2011 I have been offering recommendations based upon 'best practice' to deal with the issues such as those you refer to at the Baptist Church and I do know for a fact that Superintendent Powell of Hereford Police is currently exploring a variety of strategies and working with several agencies to deliver some long and sustainable solutions to the issues outside the church. Enforcement is therefore one option but this has to be measured in term of police resources and sustainability it may not be the most cost-effective.

 

To offer you a little more background I would invite you to view my website T4C and in particular the CPTED page which has examples of similar designs in other locations in the UK and further afield, which have created identical problems. As part of my research over the last three years I have spent a great deal of time mixing with street drinkers in Hereford and other towns and cities across the UK and what is clear to me is that any solution must be based on a clear understanding of what will deter those who drink in public.

 

In my experience the most common failing with the vast majority of solutions offered for this and other crime or anti-social behaviour issues is a lack of knowledge of what motivates and consequently what also deters, those who commit the offences. There is no great secret to ‘designing out crime’  it is simply the process of creating environments that are attractive to law-abiding citizens but hostile to criminals and those engaged in Anti-Social Behaviour.

 

Hopefully I will get an opportunity to offer some input on this and other issues in Hereford in 2014 and also to meet many more people who share my passion for positive change. I will be speaking to Colin to arrange an open meeting to introduce myself and the T4C concept and I would particularly be interested in meeting those who are yet to be convinced as to my motivations or credentials, as I am sure I will be able to reassure them on both counts.

 

Paul

 

Welcome to HV Paul. I am looking forward to meeting up with you in the near future to discuss the whole T4C concept. Good to see you joining in the debates. Welcome!

[George Armstrong]

The groups of street drinkers outside the Baptist Church seem to have disappeared of late, coinciding with the removal of the benches...

[ragwert]

The groups of street drinkers outside the Baptist Church seem to have disappeared of late, coinciding with the removal of the benches...

They now reside down by the Cathedral 

[stupidfrustration]

and they need help and guidance - or a more private place to go. But lets be honest, its going to be near an off licence, so with the mega resources that we have, perhaps they can be targeted in these locations to give help.

[dippyhippy]

Hi Colin.....most of this thread is missing, it's the same with the Velodrome thread, the You Don't Deserve Democracy thread, and the I told You It Would Get Worse thread!

 

Any chance the comments and links can be reinstated?? Some of the links in particular, are really useful, and previous posts provide an awful lot of information !!

 

Many thanks in advance!

[Roger]

and they need help and guidance - or a more private place to go. But lets be honest, its going to be near an off licence, so with the mega resources that we have, perhaps they can be targeted in these locations to give help.

 

Liverpool is trying this ...

 

 

Residents and local businesses were left outraged after the city leaders approved plans for a wet zone for alcoholics in the middle of the city’s Georgian Quarter.

 

Liverpool Echo

 

Fairly hard to create a drunk tank in Hereford City Centre tho as most of it is an alcohol free zone in theory ... Can anyone suggest a location for drunks to hang out legally near the City Centre? Or should we just zero tolerate them and throw them in the cells ? 

[TheMole]

I must admit ive always been a fan of so called, tollerence zones for the part of society that have addictions issues of this nature.  I may get shot down for saying this but i do feel a little sad for them as once they get into this cycle its so hard for them to get out of it and quite often a vicious circle.

 

No matter how much support offered society will never irradicate substance missuse and the associated addiction, so if thats the case, control has to be the next port of call.  If they can be given a zone to congregate in that is away from main public thorough fairs and secluded as far is possible, and that the area is made safe for them then they can get on with whatever it is they do, within some strict boundries.  This would be where the local policing team would come in, and the lisasion with these people.  That way, the police build good intelligence about the group, they know where they are and whos doing what and in return the group get a place to go and be in private. Its far from ideal i agree, but it relieves the problem of how it looks to members of the public and more importantly the impact it may have on children.

[dippyhippy]

Hi Mole!

 

I would agree with your post! This is definitely worth a try!

 

Other authorities are also trialling "safe spaces" schemes, and early indications show that they can have a positive effect.

[stupidfrustration]

Hey Mr Mole - you seem to talk a lot of sense!

[Roger]

and more importantly the impact it may have on children.

 

A licensing objective. You always got to meet that one ... DASH is in Commercial Road (help point) so the Graveyard next to it is an obvious choice for an Official 'Wet Zone' ... The walk to avoid it is not too long either ... 

[TheMole]

A licensing objective. You always got to meet that one ... DASH is in Commercial Road (help point) so the Graveyard next to it is an obvious choice for an Official 'Wet Zone' ... The walk to avoid it is not too long either ... 

 

This would sound like an ideal location for me too!  It has clear defined boundries, it would be easy to errect obvious signs to warn members of the public of its exsistence, it has minimal impact on residential dwellings, and like you say the diversion for those unwilling to go that way is not too far.  The town centre police team could then incorporate the site into their patrol plans.

 

Ok sorted.  We'll start it tomorrow!  If only it were that easy! Lol!

[Biomech]

A wet zone sounds alright. I agree that it's not a problem that should be swept under the carpet and hidden, but the reality of the matter is that a large proportion of these people couldn't care less and have no desire to better themselves.

[Aylestone Voice]

Having just walked through the John Venn Graveyard and suffered the foul  mouthed and drunken behaviour of a group I think they should be cleared out. Many people use this area to walk through, including many children from the school, and the drunks and addicts behave appallingly and leave a mess.

[megilleland]

AV totally agree.

[stupidfrustration]

So - what are the options :

 

Police resources are more stretched than ever before and we are suggesting "locking them up"?

 

We lock them up, put them in the cell, release them, and................................repeat 24 hours later?

 

Or - give them an area where its "allowed" - but not only that - put trained people in to "work" with them every day to help coerce them onto a more productive life path?

[Aylestone Voice]

I would rather we employed trained people to look after the old and children (in any event there is no money). The people I see there are usually the same group all the time (some are also by the duckpond) and if they have been getting help then it has not worked - so perhaps more trained people is throwing money away.

 

I wonder whether they want help?

 

Where to put them - well it would have to be close to where they can get their cheap booze and the dealers are

Perhaps they can be taken out to the cattle market as it is not in use every day and then they can find their own way back

 

I really do not mean to sound heartless but the more we tolerate bad behaviour the worse it gets

[Biomech]

I agree with AV, a large number of the repeat offenders really couldn't give two shits about improving their quality of life.

Help those who want it, remove those who have no intention of trying to fit in

[TheMole]

There in lies the problem.  There is no magice solution to the issue.  If we could come up with it i would suggest we would be in a very well paid job by now.  I cant believe that anyone deep down would actually choose a life like that.  Prehaps im wrong.

[Roger]

So - what are the options :

 

Police resources are more stretched than ever before and we are suggesting "locking them up"?

 

We lock them up, put them in the cell, release them, and................................repeat 24 hours later?

 

Or - give them an area where its "allowed" - but not only that - put trained people in to "work" with them every day to help coerce them onto a more productive life path?

 

This is a real dilemma. The Safer Neighbourhood Team for the City Centre is on this link. You can make of it what you will re: people deployed and area covered. They are of course assisted by response teams (shift cover) but I would suggest they are more reactionary and sent out in response to phoned in moans. Apart from 'events' like the May Fair, football or whatever.

 

Managing a wet zone would obviously cost money and would obviously lead to local opposition. So I think the current situation will just lurch on as it has been doing ... 

[Biomech]

A wet zone would be a plaster. 

 

We need prevention, not a cure.

 

These issues need to be stopped before they get this far