Baptist Church Drinkers ....

[dippyhippy]

Early intervention is key. In that respect Biomech, you are absolutely correct.

 

I think we would all agree that a problem as complex as addiction , is never going to be an easy one to solve. Every case is unique, and the reasons folk have these issues are as individual as the people themselves.

 

Don't forget, there are many "functioning addicts" within the community. These folks hold down responsible jobs, and have a veneer of "respectability", but they are battling the same demons.

 

Whatever the cause, they all deserve some help and support, on whatever level they are prepared to accept it.

 

I don't believe that anybody should ever be written off.

 

A safe space could work well in Hereford.

 

Where best to base it will be the biggest hurdle.

 

( Have to say, there has to be a better option than the graveyard.......!!)

[Biomech]

on whatever level they are prepared to accept it.

 

 

 

That's the problem for me, some aren't prepared to accept it, others are happy to take take take with no intention of making any effort or desire to change.

If it were me, I'd have a 3 strikes strategy. The helps there, you systematically fail to take it, you get punished.

 

I know a lot of people who work in the social care industries and the amount of times these people arrange to do peoples shopping, go over paperwork, bills, legal work, arrange to meet them at court or help them with a drugs issue and these people consistently fail to turn up for no reason other than they couldn't be assed, "forgot" to attend court for the 15th reschedule or because they know that there is no consequence,... is unreal.

[dippyhippy]

Evening Biomech!

 

I knew as I typed that sentence, you would pick up on it!!

 

Its certainly no easy task.... But I could never feel comfortable drawing a line and saying, that's it now....no more help.

 

Once again, there are a multitude of reasons why people don't always find it easy to accept, or even want to engage with, any support which is offered - mental health issues being at the fore. I can't help but look at folks and think, that with just a different roll of the dice, that could be my brother, or niece, or son or daughter.

 

 I just refuse to believe that any person is beyond help, but I do accept that the points at which they will engage with any service, vary enormously.

 

I absolutely agree there is a clear need for consequences, that is a given. I have, however, always found that the carrot far outweighs the stick!!

 

If I had a magic wand, I would wave it. I'm sure we all would if we could.

[Roger]

I'd have a 3 strikes strategy. 

 

This is the Pizza Punishment .... American ... As opposed to the three shags and you are .... etc ... 

[TheMole]

Early intervention is key, but probably too late for those already in the group.  It would prevent there people generations to follow this one but how do we deal with the issue of the current crop?

 

I said earlier i dont think they all want that life, maybe one or two at most, but it is a case of catching them when they are most likely to want to change, and this will be at a different stage for each individual.  This is true inlife in general, people will only be receptive to things when they are ready to take it on board.

 

So, what about cutting out the source?

 

Stop any benefits they recieve?  This wouldnt work as they would resort to begging, again an anti social problem or worse still shoplifting, and we all know there is no real consequnce for a shoplifter, just a few hours in a cell really.

 

Deal with the drug dealers?  Proactive policing to prevent the supply of drugs by taking out the drug dealers.  Again this wouldnt work, cause for every drug dealer removed, there is another one waiting in the wings to take over a patch.

 

How about putting procedues in place to prevent the sale of alcohol to these people?  Again this would fail as there would always be someone willing to buy it for them.

 

Being moved along?  This would be a classic game of cat and mouse with the police which they would always win and they would end up in exactly the same place as they started.

 

The list would go on.  This is what makes me think it is too late for the current group.  So what if a two pronged attack were the best method.  A safe zone for them so that they can be kept an eye on and police can monitor the group.  At the same time a early intervention plan which would prevent necomers to the group and the formation of new groups.

 

The big problem with that is, it would need a mutli agency approach and we all know that communication between these agencies is never upto scratch hence how we get to this situation!

[stupidfrustration]

Mr Mole - once again, you talk a lot of sense!

 

If only you were in a position to make that suggestion and if you were for people to listen!

[TheMole]

Wow, you're the one Stupidfrustration! The one person i would find one day that thinks i talk sense! Thanks

 

Just a shame we will never get the sort of joined up thinking that will help this issue!

[Denise Lloyd]

I'm glad somebody mentioned benefits I've been reading through the comments and this may sound very harsh but they get a fair wack of money or they used to.  When I really really needed a cash prop up through ill health there was nowt and I've worked all my life.  Many elderly and disabled people are really suffering through sheer financial cramp sorry but enough money has already been thrown at this particular group of people.  Shape up or ship out -  you get nowt for owt!   

[ragwert]

I'm glad somebody mentioned benefits I've been reading through the comments and this may sound very harsh but they get a fair wack of money or they used to.  When I really really needed a cash prop up through ill health there was nowt and I've worked all my life.  Many elderly and disabled people are really suffering through sheer financial cramp sorry but enough money has already been thrown at this particular group of people.  Shape up or ship out -  you get nowt for owt!   

Sadly this is not the case.A lot of people know Chris and Elaine,both drug users since they were teenagers and now nearly 50.

They have been given a 2 bed flat and benefits and spend all day and night high as a kite.

Not the kind of help they should be given but they have probably over the years been given plenty of help which has failed.

 

[George Armstrong]

My understanding is that the Police, partner agencies and the Churches are now putting some concerted effort into addressing this problem. So far this year we've seen several deaths amongst the street-drinking population as publicised in the HT, so a radical rethink is perhaps required here. As a religious sort might put it, sustenance is a sticking plaster but salvation is the key. A greater outreach capacity is required to set those who want to be helped back on the road to recovery. That might take some 'tough love', but some might think that the current provision just ain't working that effectively.

[Roger]

My understanding is that the Police, partner agencies and the Churches are now putting some concerted effort into addressing this problem.

 

 

Update today by the local Police. If you look for cans' and bottles you will find them ... It's how often they want to look for them that is probably the issue. On a sidenote I drove past The Exchange in Widemarsh St. today and saw it had a new outside beer garden. On the pavement. Possibly the smallest beer garden in the County! 

[Ubique]

Walked past this location at 0905 yesterday and noticed that a lady was having the unenverable task of picking up all the beer cans etc from amongst the bushes on the forecourt of the Church - appears that the users of this area do not want to put their rubbish in the rubbish bin provided.

[George Armstrong]

Unless I'm missing something, have things started getting better recently? The large gatherings appear to be getting less, with a few hardcore (4 or 5) persisting on. Any clues as to where they've gone now?

[Roger]

 

Breakfast Club at the Church suspended for one week ...

[stupidfrustration]

I went past the church today around midday - all clear - maybe the police have got on top of this.

[Ubique]

From Dippy ( and others ) Whatever the cause, they all deserve some help and support, on whatever level they are prepared to accept it.

 

These people are in a dark place - they put themselves in that position but I am sure that they would rather be out of it and living a near normal life .

 

To allow them to gather at a location for their anti social behaviour is wrong - we have all noticed that for whatever reason "gathering points " are springing up in the City centre - a favourite one is the bench outside All Saints Church ( I accept that it's also uses by people waiting for Boots to open so that they can collect their Methodone ).

 

What my suggestion is would probably encroach onto their Human Rights - each day they should be collected up , taken to a place of safety , allowed to clean up , given food but no alcohol , sorted out / treated for any medicial problems / reunited with relatives and helped to resume an acceptable live style . I know that it will take time and money but " they " have tried everything else and with due respect - appeared to have failed .

[M. Preece]

I notice regular drinkers sitting on peoples graves in Commercial Rd grave yard, personally, I think this is disgusting, I witnessed one man take a wee up against one of the head stones, this is in a public place! They she be moved from here immediately! Half of these people do not want help in my experience and handing them out free money is certainly not the answer. I felt quite intimidated walking through the graveyard earlier in order to visit a friend in hospital.

[Denise Lloyd]

M Preece  - This has always been a favoured place for the imbibers.  Forty years ago I lived at Hafod Road and walked to work at Hereford Produce Widemarsh Street through this graveyard and they were there well obviously not the same ones!  There was one with a German Shepherd Dog they were a bit spooky sometimes but mostly ok.  Some things don't change.

[George Armstrong]

I saw two policemen by the John Venn grave the other day, actually picking up the rubbish and cans left behind after the street drinkers moved on. Bit of the old 'Broken Window' idea, no doubt. Place certainly looked better after they went.

[Ubique]

Whilst I believe that its commendable the Police Officers collecting up the rubbish left by these people - it is NOT the answer . You cannot expect the Police to do it every day , or even twice a day . If the persons responsible for leaving the rubbish see the Police tidying up after them it brings the Police into disrespect or a confrontational situation - the Custody Sgt will not want them brought to his Custody Unit so a FP ticket will be issued .........and life goes on, will not pay ....Court appearance etc..........

[Roger]

I saw two policemen by the John Venn grave the other day, actually picking up the rubbish and cans left behind after the street drinkers moved on. Bit of the old 'Broken Window' idea, no doubt. Place certainly looked better after they went.

 

I worked that beat until 2009. You would never have caught me collecting litter. Very commendable actions but misguided .... 

[George Armstrong]

"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signalling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime."

Just a thought...

[George Armstrong]

"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signalling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime."

Just a thought...

[Pete Boggs]

"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signalling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime."

 

Aren't the perpetrators supposed to be nicked as well? Or am I getting confused with zero tolerance?

[George Armstrong]

"ï‚· There is often a disproportionate amount of attention directed to street drinking issues compared to other local alcohol related harm. This is largely due to the high visibility of street drinking and the influence of outspoken local resident groups and/or councillors.

 Street drinking is a complex issue in which there are no ‘quick wins’ – effective responses are largely reported to be multi-pronged approaches that achieve the difficult balance between enforcement and support based interventions, however;

ï‚· Street drinkers are often treatment resistant and largely not motivated to change street drinking habits, making support based intervention options limited.

ï‚· Street drinkers have become increasingly homogenised into a wider more complex group of street populations including drug users, rough sleepers and beggars. "

So, enforcement is not necessarily the single answer but rather one of a number of tactics to use in addressing this complex socio-economic health problem with a law & disorder dimension.

[Roger]

I drove past the entrance to the Burial Ground on Commercial Road at about 2.45 pm today. Some fella sat there supping a can of lager. Accompanied by his lurcher dog. All seemed in order but I suppose it's in the black/white area. ie no drinking there officially ... 

[Bilbobobby]

Now I have some insight and knowledge of what this issue is about and what steps are being taken to address the attitude and behaviour of those who are commonly known as 'street drinkers'.

1. The city centre is covered by a number of orders that prohibit street drinking.  These orders are owned by the council and are currently subject to review.  The purpose of the orders is not to stop decent members of society from having a drink in areas where you normally stop and picnic, they are in place to tackle the behaviour of the minority who cause acohol related anti social behaviour.  Most of the city is covered by orders - plus other areas across the county.  What is NOT covered is are the Bishops Meadows and King George Playing fields.  This does not prevent the police from dealing with people who act in a anti social way.   

2. To enforce the no street drinking orders, the signs saying there is an order have to be in place - this is being addressed by the council.

3. The problems in the city centre are down to a group of between 5 and 15 (depending on the location and time of day).  Majority are local and many have long term alcohol, drugs and mental health issues.  Many are alcoholics, most are homeless and all need some sort of help and support - again down to the many agencies who are funded to tackle this work.

4. A lot of the locations where they hang around are church based - why - mainly because its warm, they can get shelter and can get food.  Churches are for all - good and bad - and as such the churches will tolerate a lot more than most, but will not allow drunk abusive behaviour which stops others from entering their premises.

5. The police know who cause the problems, they tackle and challenge them on a regular basis. Many are arrested, charged, kept for court and released within a short period by the courts - this is out of the control of the police.

6. The police and are taking out anti social behaviour orders if all else fails (and it will because some have no regards to others and cannot change their behaviour).  These orders will and do control the behaviour of many.  It's all about changing attitude

7. The level of alcohol related anti social behaviour is low compared to other cities (or towns with a big church) - but it is right to say that what is happening is of concern and does impact on businesses and the public

8. The police and council are working with the licensing trade to ensure that alcohol is sold responsibly - now that's a big word that could be subject of a wider debate!

8. I know there is a lot more happening to tackle this problem - a minority of the public (some of those who post on this site included) should not automatically 'judge a book by its cover' and should look to help instead of protraying the city centre as out of control etc...

This city should be promoted and looked as a jewel in the county - don't let the behaviour of a minority cloud the need to show that Hereford is safe to live, work and visit.  Its a fact....!

[dippyhippy]

Well said Bilbobobby!

 

A comprehensive and insightful post,which echoes many of my own thoughts on this subject. A great contribution - let's hope you keep on posting!!

[Roger]

8. I know there is a lot more happening to tackle this problem - a minority of the public (some of those who post on this site included) should not automatically 'judge a book by its cover' and should look to help instead of protraying the city centre as out of control etc...

 

I don't think anyone on this forum has suggested the City Centre is 'out of control'.

 

The party line from the authorities is that boozing/assaults/disorder is low here compared to other places and that may well be true statistically. A sort of 'glass is half full' approach/propaganda.

 

But not very helpful if you get randomly battered/sexually assaulted on your night out or on your way home. Which happens.

 

The random nature of what happens also helps to fuel the fear of crime generally.

 

Who would feel safe walking around the Castle Green on their own at Midnight? I wouldn't! So some people could, and do, take a 'glass is half empty' view as the truth is the City Centre can be pretty dodgy on occasions.

 

Plus if groups of drunks are able to spend considerable amounts of time slumped outside the Baptist Church boozing from cans' then that will attract comment. 

 

There appears to have been an operation in town the last week or so according to Twitter but it seems to have generated virtually no publicity or interest so I dunno how successful that would be classed as a publicity exercise.

[stupidfrustration]

Roger - Once again, having been in many towns and cities around this great land, I can tell you HEREFORD IS SAFE and a GREAT PLACE to LIVE and WORK!

 

There is some degree of Crime everywhere - HEREFORD is safe, its pleasant, you are safe to walk around town day and night and YOU seem to have an axe to grind.

 

You really are a strange little man.

 

Ive found out a bit about you Roger and from what Ive heard, you have always been a strange guy.

 

Hereford has its problems, but its a lot better than many places.

 

Lets find GOOD things to talk about!

 

What have you EVER done thats been good for Hereford? 

Even if it didnt work, what have you TRIED to do thats good for Hereford?

 

Its easy to sit on the sidelines and throw stones, anyone can do that!