Cabinet control of Herefordshire Council could end soon

[flamboyant]

Exactly Cllr Powell, I don't think you will get the named vote through! I have an insight into IOC as I'm sure you do, I'm waiting for the rest of the public to catch on!

 

I am amazed that no one realises that the only way to gain any credibility is to be open, honest and transparent! Your popularity Cllr Powell is in part due to your honesty, as soon as the other parties catch on to the secret of popularity the better their parties will do! It's not complicated prove your honesty and integrity and the rest will follow!!!

[Chris Chappell]

Good Morning,

 

There needs to be no mistake by the IOC or anyone else for that matter, the Council has to make the decision about how to run the Council before next May. The day after the election, the groups need to get together to decide who runs the council etc. within days a new Leader needs to have an idea who their Executive or what ever is going to be. An agreement across Council as to who is Chairman. We can not be deciding what form of Council we want as late as that as there would be no constitution or standing orders to do it!

 

I hope the IOC will join the Independents in a named vote at Council in September. I hope also that they will join us in working on a new way of running the Council. We have to put aside any differences there may be and work as one group to decide on the future of Herefordshire Council.

 

The county's future for years to come depends on strong Leadership now!

[Denise Lloyd]

Does this hoped for reshuffle mean that the Planning Committee will be sorted out?

[flamboyant]

I am totally confused by the following statement

 

It’s Our County is committed to replacing the cabinet system, giving many more decisions to full council and a real, democratically representative voice to all councillors.

 

CLLR CHARLES NICHOLLS It’s Our County Fayre Oaks Home Park, Hereford.

Particularly in view of Ubique's post above, why are IOC Councillors saying different things?

 

Didn't IOC have an opportunity to join a coalition Council, which they rejected?

 

http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/10865325.Collapse_of_coalition_talks__Herefordshire_Council_leader_s_statement/

 

Wasn't this the same thing?

[dippyhippy]

Flam, have a read through the thread "There Will Be No Coalition In Hereford." I would have posted on it to bring it back to the front page, but comments are no longer allowed! It's taken me an age to find, but I knew it had been discussed. There was no way either IOC or The Independants were going to jump into bed with the Conservatives....and quite rightly so!!

Also check out the thread "Hereford Council Leader Wants Opposition To Fix Problems." for lots more background....sorry I cannot do the handy link thing!!

[flamboyant]

Dip I'm totally confused, I blame the Gin! The vote to rid us of Cabinet and impose a new system isn't that the same thing Cllr Johnson offered in the article above? I mean what's the difference? Also we have two IOC Councillors making different statements one voting yes and the other saying no way!

[dippyhippy]

I've managed to bump one of the threads back to the front page for you to peruse Flam!!

[flamboyant]

Ok I'm up to speed probably not on the same page as everyone else but that's not unusual! Im not confident anything will change, I don't see IOC changing their previous stance! I think they have their eye firmly on the May election and they want the Current administration to continue along this destructive path! Any change to the current administration or Cabinet will not serve IOCs objectives. That said I'm happy to be shot down.

[Chris Chappell]

Sorry if some of this sounds confusing, but my back is killing me today and I am out of whiskey!!

 

To answer Dippy first. Glenda and I will make sure that all the Independents go for a named vote. I have ways and means of making certain members of the IOC vote! Also remember that the Green Party is now a group on the Council and I hope that they too will join a named vote.

 

I hope that the Notice of Motion and the arguments of those of us speaking to it, will sway the vote.

 

Denise. The committee least like to be affected by change is Planning. It is a statutory committee with guide lines and rules that are similar in Lands End and Newcastle. Members joining committee have to have traing and good reasons and argument made for going against officers recommendations.

 

There will be no change in the way Council is run before May. But now is the time to decide what sort of Government we want for the county following the election. The IOC seem to think that working with a coalition of other groups they can just change things day after election, it does't work like that!

[dippyhippy]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your post, clarifying things for us. I hope your back feels better soon......try Tiger Balm Red if you can get your hands on a pot(Sainsbury stock it!) It's good stuff! Only down side being, folks can smell you arriving from two streets away!!

[megilleland]

Hereford Times: Wednesday 27 August 2014 in News by Bill Tanner

Herefordshire Council - plan to save cabinet ahead of abolition vote

 

Cabinet could survive as an all party executive.

 

CABINET could stay as the “top table†for Herefordshire Council if all parties choose to take a seat.

 

In a letter to the Hereford Times, former deputy chairman of the council Cllr Chris Chappell says the abolition of cabinet in favour of committees is wrong.

 

The cabinet system faces a ground breaking survival vote when the full council meets on September 26.

 

Cllr Chappell, who defected from the Labour group to the Independents a year ago, is fighting for cabinet to stay saying  a single executive body cannot be completely replaced  by committee made decisions.

 

“Someone has to be held accountable for implementing committee decisions, and to make the daily decisions that come up in any executive members portfolio,†said Cllr Chappell.

 

“There is already argument that Council takes too long to make decisions.  With solely a committee run Council, there has by law, to be an agenda published and seven working days notice published, before meeting can take place, too long to get Balfour t,for example, to be asked to take on extra gully cleaning duties,†he said.

 

Ahead of the cabinet vote, the Independent  is examining options for a more flexible system that offers “backbench†councillors a greater say in decisions, along with stronger scrutiny.

 

 Cllr Chappell sees a solution in an “executive of all the talents†with input from each party.

 

“I hope that  It’s Our County, the Lib Dems, Greens and if they wish, the Tories, will join the Independents now, to draw up a new system of government prior to May's election. We need to consult the public too, all of which takes time.   Once decided, a new Constitution and Standing Orders will need to be drafted,†he said.

 

A similar concept was rejected by opposition parties when offered by the Tories in December last year.

 

As deputy chairman, Cllr Chappell seconded a motion in January this year that effectively ended the taking of named votes at full council unless that named vote had the support of eight or more members.

 

The way  is clear for councillors to end cabinet control of  the council should members vote to do so.

 

Legislation allows for the council to re-adopt a committee system of governance with relative ease.

 

A combined opposition vote at the September 26 meeting would defeat any Tory attempt to defend cabinet.

 

The Tory group currently controls the council – through cabinet – as a minority.

 

A committee system is still a permitted form of council governance under the Localism Act 2011.

 

The Act allows for a change in governance arrangements through a full council resolution.

 

A notice must also be published informing the public that the council intends to change its governance arrangements having passed a resolution to support the change.

 

Copies of the documents detailing the changes must also be available for inspection.

 

Ending cabinet control would also require a re-write of the council’s constitution.

 

Once a council has passed a resolution to change its governance arrangements, the Act says those arrangements cannot change again for another five years, unless the second resolution is approved following a referendum.

 

Cabinet control of the council could over ahead of the next local elections if full council votes for the abolition motion at its meeting on September 26.

 

The motion is proposed by Cllr Terry James, Lib-Dem group leader, who headed the council’s first cabinet in 1999.

 

Support for the motion is expected from the Independent group and It’s Our County (IOC).

 

Alternatives to cabinet include a wider ranging committee system and more voting power for the full council.

 

Cllr James said successive cabinets had come to forget their purpose to appear as little more than a body delegating decisions to officers rather than running the council.

 

“We see millions of pounds being spent on setting up new offices at Plough Lane and Hereford Shire Hall while grass doesn’t get cut to save a few thousand,†he said.

 

Dissatisfaction with the cabinet system has simmered on the council’s “backbenches† for some years.

 

 Many members believe cabinet stifles their voice and diminishes the role of ward councillor.

 

Equally long-running are concerns over “closed doors† when key or sensitive decisions are discussed.

 

IT’s Our County (IOC) leader Cllr Anthony Powers said his party was already “actively exploring†alternatives to cabinet that could be presented as policy.

 

“There is a need to re-build the council’s decision-making processes. Cabinet leaves too many decisions to too few, more councillors should be getting a greater say in decisions,†said Cllr Powers.

 

Cllr Bob Matthews, Independent group leader, said his members wanted “changes in some form†to decision making ahead of the election.

 

Those changes, said Cllr Matthews, centred on ideas around a system that was based more around specific committees than a single cabinet – spreading the scope of representation.

 

Cabinet, as such, could be made up of the committee chairman with the council leader getting the casting vote, he said.

 

The intention to change, outlined by Cllr Matthews in a letter to the Hereford Times earlier this month, moved the abolition motion forward.

 

The role of scrutiny is widely seen as in need of an overhaul too.

 

In May, the Independents and Tories took control of the overview and scrutiny committee, ousting the IOC chairman and deputy chairman.

 

That move brought  fears over the political and strategic function of scrutiny - as a body specifically set up to challenge cabinet decision making – to the fore.

 

The concept of a cabinet was one the first executive issues to face Herefordshire Council from its start in 1998.

 

Then, a government white paper outlined the abolition of traditional committee and sub-committee systems, seen as diffusing responsibility and leaving voters unclear as where decision making powers lay.

 

The then group leaders were united on the idea of a cabinet that met only behind closed doors – as the white paper allowed.

 

Arguments in favour of closed doors cited the “openness†offered by mixed party scrutiny committees responsible for specific service areas.

 

 The Hereford Times led calls for cabinet to open its doors, but resistance to the body meeting in public continued to January 2000 ahead of a reform motion being put to full council .

 

That motion was headed off in the chamber, with the then council leader Cllr James  conceding that cabinet proceedings would go public.

 

The size of cabinet, and the roles available within it, has fluctuated since with opposition leaders allowed a say at each meeting and local members when issues specific to constituencies were discussed.

 

“There is already argument that Council takes too long to make decisions.  With solely a committee run Council, there has by law, to be an agenda published and seven working days notice published, before meeting can take place, too long to get Balfour for example, to be asked to take on extra gully cleaning duties,†he said.

 

Not sure what you are getting at here. All council meetings at present produce an agenda what's the difference? It's the fire service that have trouble producing an agenda and publishing their meeting minutes. Still waiting for the Policy and Resources Committee 2nd June meeting minutes before their next on 10th September concerning the relocation of the fire station.

 

[Chris Chappell]

Hi

 

Just let me put this right but maybe you need to read the whole letter when it is published. Firstly I did not say we should keep cabinet. Only that someone has to ensure decisions of committees are implemented. That can be the Chairman of committee or anyone else but the 'buck' has to stop somewhere.

 

My point about the Agenda and notice of committee meetings, is that in private business a decision is made this morning and implemented this afternoon at the whim of the management. Because Councillors have to be held accountable, the public need to have a week to read the agenda, as do the Councillors and a week to decide what is the best way forward taking into account the information in the agenda. The public need a weeks notice of the meeting to make arrangements to attend.

 

In Rotherham, the Cabinet member should have been fully briefed on what was known about the awful events, including confidential items. There will be resignations. Social workers in Herefordshire hate sharing confidential material. A committee would have been unlikely to have been fully briefed, have all the information and may not have made a decision! Should the whole committee

resign or just the Chairman?

 

This is why I want to have a full review of the cabinet system, put in a more democratic system, with committees and better scrutiny.

[megilleland]

Thanks for the clarification

[twowheelsgood]

The differences will be in what sort of Administration do we want following the election. As I mention in my earlier posting there will have to be some named individuals who make daily decisions. It's the reporting of these decisions, and the communication to other Councillors and scrutiny that is important.

 

I've read this post and you've repeated the gist of this notion several times - sorry, I just don't see it. Councillors role is not to be so enmeshed with Officers that they are having to take decisions every day - that is an Officers role. Councillors are supposed to deal with over arching policy and sub-divisions of that, not signing off a pavement to be dug up for a gas leak - that's just absurd, and I don't believe it happens. Of course, there will be situations arising when a committee chair or cabinet member will have to be contacted at short notice, but ordinarily, you are paying some well qualified officers some extremely high salaries to do the day to day running and that is what they should do. Your proposal smacks of old school labour control freakery, and look at the mess that's landed us in.

[dippyhippy]

"Fighting for cabinet to stay."

 

I appreciate that as you have said, Chris, this is not your letter in its entirety.......but this is quite a big stick to be grasping the wrong end of!

 

The article isn't credited.....but it would be highly unusual for Bill Tanner to miss the gist of things.

 

I also strongly believe that named votes are crucial, if we are to ever move towards a system that truly promotes openness, transparency and accountability.

[flamboyant]

TWG well said !!

[flamboyant]

This comes as no surprise

 

http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/11454247.Herefordshire_Council___debate_on_the_future_for_cabinet_likely_to_be_delayed/

[dippyhippy]

Oh, for crying out loud.

 

It's always the same...one step forward, and two steps back.

[twowheelsgood]

Not backwards but sideways surely? Sidestepping, stalling, whatever - it's plain to see what they're up to - do they really think we can't see or, more likely, do they really not care?

[dippyhippy]

I wish they would just put forward a motion of no confidence in the cabinet, and have done with it.

[flamboyant]

They almost certainly engineered that!

[Chris Chappell]

Please understand this!

 

A notice of no confidence in the Cabinet would not mean the Tories would no longer be in control. It might get the present bunch to resign, but the law states that the Group with the most Councillors or if there is a coalition, two or more Groups, under political porportion, control the Council. Other Tories would just step in. The only way you get rid of the Tories is to vote them out next May. Until then, unless the combined opposition Parties set up an Executive/Cabinet, you will continue as we are.

 

The Constitution/Standing Orders is for a Cabinet and would be difficult to change before New Year earliest.

 

Many of us in the opposition Groups do know what we are doing, we know what can be achieved and what will have to wait. It is not just the bloggers here we have to talk to but all the other partners in the county. Please be patient, bide your time, we are working on a new system of government in the county. If we do things properly, with thought, then we will do away with the present system of Cabinet, the present way officers are run and give the public more say in how their county is run. But please let those of us with the experience, knowledge and courage, get on to do the job.

 

My priorities at the moment are to sort out the various scandals effecting the Council and looking after the homeless, abused children and various other worries that affect peoples lives. There are too many. It is these things you should be making your priorities, they are mine and they are many.

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[flamboyant]

Forgive me Cllr Chappell

 

'please let those of us with the experience, knowledge and courage, get on to do the job?'

 

Who exactly and more importantly, where was all the experience, knowledge and courage, when these scandals were in the making? By your own admission you weren't familiar with the bullying fiasco and if anyone had the experience, knowledge or courage these scandals wouldn't be happening over and over again! At the very least keep abreast of Public Sector News we don't want to find ourselves with any more suits kicked into touch by another Council!

[Chris Chappell]

Flamboyant

 

I realise that as a former council officer you knew a lot about what was going on, but I was aware at the time it is just there have been so many that you are proably not aware of. I had no wish to offend, but none of us can know everything that goes on in the Council.

 

Bullying goes on in every organisation, just as it did in your former area of employment, but we can only act if Councillors are told about it! If I am correct, you reported to your line manager, that people partially sighted could not do their job properly and if I am correct, I am sure that I will turn up at some point, your email to me letting me know there was a problem!! At the moment I can not trace it, but have got others!.

 

It always worries me that you will put the lives of your children and elderly parents in the hands of an undemocratic organisations like the Hospital Trust, and believe everything their staff tell you, or let the Magistrates sentence you to 100hours community work without questioning who these people are, or that a non elected committee is responsible for keeping the Police Commisioner under control, without question, touching forelock, or allow your child to go to a school where the unelected Govenors could make a decision that will effect your child for life, but the democratically elected people from your community who have their names! Contact details and faces published on everypublic forum and you can replace every four years, you take every opportunity to give a good kicking to.

 

Sorry, what did you say your name is, and how can I contact you to let you know what is happening on and around the Council?

 

The other thing you have to remember is that most of the bulling is going on by people living in Herefordshire, in your street, maybe your neighbour,some one near you, possibly in your family, amoung your friends ,just as domestic violence does! Sun valley use to be rife with bullies living in our communities, I see some of them now. No one has reported them! Herefordshire Council for many years was run by families, and you had to be so careful that you did not say one thing to someone who turned out to be related to a manager in another department.

 

We all need to be against bullying, how ever high up it goes, who ever it is, that will take courage and determination to sort the problem. I am in regular contact with Unison, where I know they are aware that many officers are not members. I hope you are, so together, we can campaign to rid ourselves of bullies and intimadation.

 

Perhaps you could start by telling the other bloggers who you are and how you can be contacted!! I could do it for you if you confirm I am right in your identity. It would be a start and you would be much more respected by casual readers who take little notice of those who hide behind silly names.

 

If you want to help,I have lots of constituents who are legally homeless, owe In excess of £30k, and who have domestic violence issues. Then there is the 'Child abuse issue'. The mental health issues and illiteracy and numeracy issues. As well as having a go at Councillors you could be useful helping me with these problems. What did you say your name was, or have I got it here.....

 

Have courage, we will have more democracy in Hereordshire, join those of us who are prepared to speak out no matter what the consequences are.

[gdj]

Cllr Chappell,

 

You seem to be experiencing similar things to many others - a desire to do the right and honest thing by your community that is frustrated by seeming to be  lone voice.  I am sure flamboyant's criticism isn't at your personal efforts but at the experience of trying to draw attention to a scandal and those who should help not doing so.  You are to be admired for taking part in this discussion.

 

I do think, though, that you are too close to revealing flamboyant's identity (which I don't know).  Can I ask you to be careful and please to review and edit your post?  I don't know what the repercussions could be for him/her so it is best to make the allusions to identity a no go area.

 

You could send a private message if want a more direct discussion.   Thanks

[flamboyant]

And there you have it Cllr Chappell! If you think you know my identity then be my guest expose me, I've been bullied before I'm immune to it! I have certainly faced the consequences! Councillors who don't like criticism will attack the critics, my question was valid and in my experience Councillors will pick their battles with their goal on winning the war!

[WirralPC]

As a newcomer and an outsider, can I just watn the councillor that he is straying into an extremely sensitive realm - personal privacy and the risk attached to exposing third parties to the risk of being identified.

 

The circumstances and the "justifications" you may have are irrelevant. Are you a data controller registered with the ICO? You could be risking a £5,000 fine... or if the party suffering a detriment pushes for it, an unlimited fine in the High Court...

 

Think on...

[Chris Chappell]

Flamboyant ,I think you are too close to retirement if you have not already done so to worry. Do't worry it suits my purposes not to expose you, you are not, after all the only officer on here!

 

My constituents are the Alpha and the Onega, the beginning and the end for me. I will have a go at them but will not allow anyone else too. Many of them have been run down by council officer, police,health, OTs and others, I just want them to be given a chance. Some are being bullied. When I am wrong tell me, when I am right keep quiet. There are a number of issues coming up that will need a lot of support, you have a part to play in this, help me please. I can trust Bill Tanner as he and I go way back and understand our boundaries, the bloggers need now to help us. Bill and I talk often, not just about Council matters.

 

There may be questions asked at Council in September, that seem strange, but there is a reason, and it is not the question but the answer that is important!

 

It's past my bedtime, back aches, my temper gets back to normal, and the email I asked for 24 hrs ago, from Leader of Council, has not been replied to. So same again tomorrow then!! Nite

[bobby47]

Chris I am so disappointed in you. You and I have had our moments but you've never behaved like this toward me. My fellow Socialist you are wrong to treat my friend Flamboyant like this and I only hope that in time I'll be able to forgive you.

Just to put this record straight, it is I who feeds Flamboyant the information, it is I who helped Flamboyant construct the email to you and therefore it is I who needs attacking. Not my friend Flamboyant.

Think about these past few exchanges Chris and reflect upon them. You are a good lad and today you've let yourself down. My only regret is I've used Flamboyant to fire my arrows instead of doing it myself. This entire sad chapter in 'tapping' should end now with a bit of thought, a little kindness and a sincere apology.

My very warmest regards to you Chris.

[Chris Chappell]

I am sorry if this got out of hand but politics is all about getting angry!

 

I am very angry this evening, now I have had it confirmed that the N o M Terry James proposed and seconded by Bob Matthews, has not been allowed on the grounds that there are already too many NoMs coming to Council in September! Bob Matthews was even told that it would take 8 months to re-write the constitution, which is a load of rubbish.

 

So what now, well we could try to get Standing Orders suspended at the meeting. I am prepared to stay all day at Council debating issues, but not sure if everyone else shares that view. Or we could bring it back to the following meeting in December, but that's pushing it.

Hopefully, the opposition Groups will go ahead anyway and start putting in place a plan for a different type of governance after the May elections.