Cambo Posted June 4, 2015 Report Posted June 4, 2015 Well I've just spoken with the guy who used to have fusion & he said he was paying £30,000 a year so say the odeon was half of that £15,000? be looking at around £45,000 a year? That's how much of a hit HC would be taking if they granted FC the PA & the full 100% business rate discount?
Denise Lloyd Posted June 4, 2015 Report Posted June 4, 2015 So there is every likelihood they will get planning for this - nobody else has stepped forward to take it on. There will be the Conningsby Street premises/The Forge (Marion Fathers premises) and this one - none of which will be paying business rates or tax(I think). These are just the ones we know of ! That amounts to a lot of loss of revenue for the Council obviously not the tax but the business rate issue. Strange that none of them actually crawl out from their version of the bible to defend their heap but there again us moaners are just small fry compared with these property magnets. Oh of course there will be the burger bar in OLM I expect they too will be exempt.
dippyhippy Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Posted June 4, 2015 I'm very surprised that the spokesperson for the new university hasn't issued some sort of statement about these premises. So many folks have been under the impression that this site had been earmarked for their use. I'm hoping that this isn't because they are hand in glove with Freedom Church..... Perhaps an email seeking clarification as to whether they have ever been offered these premises might be an idea??
tommysmith Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Plenty of guff written about Freedom Church on here and everywhere else. Their progressive and full on style of worship is not my cup of tea but stories which I read about brainwashing and cults are wide of the mark having been there a few times. Probably some of their methodology has been ill thought out and who knows what else goes on fully behind the scenes - not me and probably not any of us. Yes we can read all sorts in the press and on the net, doesnt mean to say there is no spin or misrepresentation. What I do know as a church goer is that no church is a perfect church, as no organisation or indiidual is either. What I also know is that for all the youngsters they do engage with and who attend, it is less kids who go out causing ASB behaviour and the like on a Friday night. Mind you if there was no room for gossip and hearsay (along with hard facts) websites such as this would have little to discuss!
dippyhippy Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Posted June 9, 2015 Hello there, Tommy! Welcome to Hereford Voice. Thanks for commenting on this thread. What I would say is that this thread, and indeed Colin's which is linked to this, do contain facts. An awful lot of facts..... which is why it is so alarming. If the content of this thread was merely gossip and title tattle, I'm sure not many would be concerned. But having read the facts... and believe me, there is much more..... folks are really starting to have their eyes opened. It's not a church, in my opinion. It's a business. And a profitable one at that.
tommysmith Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Hi Dippy, Thanks for the welcome. Would the Freedom Church model then be similar to many of the so called superchurches in the US? If any church has income streams other than or in addition to the 'Sunday giving' is this problematic? If a church pays its leaders from these income streams is this wrong? (My opinion is that if these leaders are living lavish lifestyles on the back of it then this would be something I would find uncomfortable). If these 'facts' could be verified by independent sources - an Audit Commision for the church if one existed, then I'd be interested. To me a church is a community of committed believers, based on the teachings of the Bible. I accept other will have different opinions though.
dippyhippy Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Posted June 9, 2015 Hello again Tommy, A few of us who are looking into this, are looking at how New Springs Church in America are funded as they are contributing significant amounts of money to Freedom Church. We are very careful to only put on the thread information which is backed up by facts and figures! As and when we uncover more, we'll post it. It does seem to me a bit like a pyramid system, where those at the top of the pile are doing very nicely thankyou. I have no issue with the members lower down the food chain who obviously attend because they enjoy what's on offer. I do have issues with how these members are recruited though, and the positions held by some who appear to be doing the recruiting. I'm also concerned about the pre election leaflets which were distributed by Freedom Church. They appear to be trying to use their influence in ways I don't think a "church" should. Another reason why I perceive them to be more of a business, than anything else. (There is a link to this discussion on post number 136, page 5 of this thread..... well worth a read through!) Believe me, if it was just about religion, I would not have a problem!
tommysmith Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Well, their methods certainly attract attention and debate, - more than most churches do! Conversely, the 'controversy' Freedom creates and the publicity they get makes it quite an attractive proposition to some. I'm sure many/most that attend are very genuine people but throw enough mud, some sticks and they will be labelled as something they probably aren't. I'm just grateful we live in a country where we can still choose what religion, if any we follow, without fear of oppression. If Freedom are a little shady, they fit in well with most Councils, many large and small companies and political parties!
dippyhippy Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Posted June 9, 2015 I'll not disagree with you on your last point, Tommy! It's always good to hear the views of new members, I'm glad you're getting stick in to the debates!
Cambo Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Hello tommy some good points raised I suppose you could say there are similarities of FC's model with that of super churches in the USA of which I find these of a somewhat dubious nature anyway!…new spring church who FC have a very friendly relationship with are one such church who are regard as being dubious even by the the South Carolina Baptist Convention so much so they kick NSC out?! http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/01/23/baptists-message-to-newspring-youre-not-one-of-us-guest-post-by-james-duncan-of-pajamapages/
tommysmith Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Big is not always best! My opinion is that if a church gets too big, above a few hundred attendees it should sub divide and plant a new church elsewhere. Anyway , back on topic, it will be interesting to see if Freedom get the old cinema building and what they do with it.
dippyhippy Posted June 9, 2015 Author Report Posted June 9, 2015 "Plant a new church". That's an interesting phrase to use. Very.... Freedom Churchesque, if you don't mind me saying so!
tommysmith Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Don't mind at all Dippy. Church planting may sound horticultural but is basically just starting a new one in a specific area where the there is a perceived need/catchment. Nothing to do with a building as I know of churches that meet in peoples homes in small groups. Got not affiliation or inclination to Freedom myself, preferring to concentrate on my own faith. Personally, I'm not too bothered about the facts and figures about them, - they will either implode with time or thrive and expand. Is there anything we can do to change this?
Cambo Posted June 9, 2015 Report Posted June 9, 2015 Big is not always best! My opinion is that if a church gets too big, above a few hundred attendees it should sub divide and plant a new church elsewhere. So are you saying that if a church gets too big, groups inside that church should break away,form a totally new church with no affiliation to say a mother church? Tithe, would it be right to say that members of FC pay what they call a 10% tithe?
Denise Lloyd Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 The Most Amazing Guide to Leadership Ever 3 minutes | Useful advice for starting a dance party or a mass movement to change the world. FILMSFORACTION.ORG The Most Amazing Guide to Leadership Ever This seems all very familiar
tommysmith Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 I would say that a church which is too big is likely to have a different set of and possibly more issues than small to medium sized ones. Whether or not a new one remains connected to a 'mother church' is not so important IMO. In the christian world there is one God but many denominations. Tithing is based on old testament religious practices, though many today still follow this 10% principle. I believe that church members should give what they can reasonably afford to, based on their own circumstances and conscience. If Freedom demand 10% to attend or be a member then that is wrong, if they suggest or encourage it then not so bad but putting figures is probably unhelpful.
Cambo Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 Nice idea but I can see that being problematic also?…with lots of smaller churches whose congregation numbers when added together would be into the tens of thousands even millions with no central mother church to answer too or to regulated there behaviour? What would happen when one of these individual churches steps out of line?…Or would they all be register for charity status? therefore being regulated by the charities commission? A church can gather tithing through the use of gift aid so for every pound donated they can claim a extra 25p? Not sure but I think individual people can also claim tax relief on donations also?? So tithing can be very lucrative to any church choosing to operate tithe so it would be in the interest of those running churches like FC to grow in numbers as the bigger the congregation the bigger the revenue which tends to see there property portfolio grow?
tommysmith Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 All salient points Cambo - I think FC interest will run and run!
Paul Neades Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 This is a really good thread with excellent impartial input from Tommy and others, it's great to see open mindedness and debate. Long may it continue.
dippyhippy Posted June 10, 2015 Author Report Posted June 10, 2015 I always think that the most interesting threads are the ones with lots of contributors..... makes for a more diverse and interesting read. I'm glad you've posted on here, Paul!
Cambo Posted June 10, 2015 Report Posted June 10, 2015 All salient points Cambo - I think FC interest will run and run! Yes I'm sure it will as they won't be able to keep themselves out of the news? as they have very big ambition not just from tithing…so it will be hard for them not to?…but there are many benefits from being a charity even if the charitable work they do is conspicuous by its absents?…so I guess it's worth the risk for those at the top?…As long as the money keeps rolling in & the empire keeps growing?!
dippyhippy Posted June 11, 2015 Author Report Posted June 11, 2015 Hi Tommy, could I possibly pick your brain??? In an earlier post, you mentioned that you had attended Freedom Church a few times, could you tell me the reasons why you decided it wasn't for you? I completely understand if you want to tell me to mind my own business, but I am curious! Hope you don't mind me asking???
tommysmith Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 No worries Dippy. The people I found really friendly but it was very loud and perhaps a bit too modern for my tastes, with a predominantly younger age range (not exclusively though). The teaching was bible based, so got no issues with that element. I'm a bit more of a traditionalist churchwise.
Cambo Posted June 11, 2015 Report Posted June 11, 2015 I'm sure they were very friendly & I'd expect them to be, I've heard they have a in house rock band? They do like young people & there are strong rumours that they do target a young audience? Bible based teaching I guess it's how those doctrines are interpreted to whether or not it is good bible teaching? & given that Gary snowzell's mentor & benefactor Perry Noble's NSC have fallen out with SCBC because of the way they go about teachings the bible then I think you'd have to question FC's bible teaching? This is by someone who went along to a NSC service…you may not think it relevant but when you realise that there is a strong connect between FC & NSC then it does become relevant because Perry Noble's lot have pumped a lot of money into FC?! https://jonathangrahamblog.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/newspring-has-sprung/
dippyhippy Posted June 11, 2015 Author Report Posted June 11, 2015 Evening Tommy, many thanks for the response! Could I just ask a few more questions?? How long did you attend? Were you invited by anybody to attend?? And was there any "follow up" when you decided that it wasn't for you?? (I know, I know..... I'm a nosey so and so! Feel free not to answer any/all, I shan't mind!)
tommysmith Posted June 12, 2015 Report Posted June 12, 2015 Dippy, Went 3 times, was not invited by anyone, and no follow up by anyone either.
dippyhippy Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Posted June 12, 2015 Tommy, you're a gentleman! Many thanks for indulging my curiosity!
Cambo Posted June 13, 2015 Report Posted June 13, 2015 Someone is feeling very confident from what they have posted on there twitter account, that this is a foregone conclusion?
Cambo Posted June 13, 2015 Report Posted June 13, 2015 https://twitter.com/GarySnowzell/status/605353286678523905
Denise Lloyd Posted June 13, 2015 Report Posted June 13, 2015 Was the new financial provision granted to them through prayer or a bung from their new partners in crime New Spring Church or perhaps a totally legit source? Another organisation who seems to know how the Planning Department are going to jump before they actually jump. Somebody is making information available before it comes into the public domain - confidentiality confidentiality - but as Marc Willimont says Marc Willimont â€@Marc_Willimont 17h17 hours ago Bage Court Broiler Units refused.Landscape/ecology/highways Hopefully reassures #Herefordshire planning is independant professional service Herefordshire planning is a professional service so it just can't be one of that team now can it?
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