"Nothing to hide, nothing to fear?" This could happen to you.

[Amanda Martin]

Thanks Ubique and everyone who has posted.  Apparently the matter will be adjourned to the Crown Court when J pleads "Not Guilty".  What a waste of public money.  

[Bilbobobby]

Post deleted

[Amanda Martin]

I read the post before it was deleted.  It's fine - it was a reasonable point and I'm always prepared to accommodate opposing points of view.  That is the nature of debate.  

It prompts me to add that I still have enough faith in our police forces to be sure that the vast majority of officers do a hard, dangerous and stressful job and do it in a way that we can all be proud of  .

[Ubique]

Just amazed that it will finish up in Crown Court with Judge and jury - of course I presume that the Officer dealing will have to submit a report / file to the CPS for them to decide if it should be taken further .

[Amanda Martin]

It may be thrown out.  The fact remains that the custody sergeant involved is not a fit individual and, in the public interest,  should be removed from his post.   

[greenknight]

Have been watching this thread whilst away and therefore had a little time to post a comment. A lot of things went wrong right from the moment that Julian was pulled over and it beggars belief at what point the custody sergeant thought his monitored actions might not come back to bite him in the backside. It makes no sense these days after all any suggestion of video editing or doctoring timelines will come out in the wash unless of course he is looking for a way out but not with the pension! I would think by now the station super has taken calls from an Assistant Chief Constable even prior to responses from the official complaint mechanism! Sadly officers covering West Mercia Herefordshire have got a lot of bad press recently sadly self inflicted.

 

As a recent incident in the USA has shown video is a very powerful tool and as stated before it does not hurt to have it fitted in your car. It's for your own protection against other drivers including the Police, who don't have a badge to either drive badly or intimidate drivers particularly if not under a blue light scenario. Personally I drive with more than one video solution monitoring events front and back of the vehicle and I also have audio. At a drop of a hat I can produce a looped three hour timeline which endorses my driving style just in case someone feels it necessary to suggest I was doing something that is incorrect.If your confident about your driving style then don't let the system score one on you. You might get cheaper car insurance to boot.

 

I'm sure Amanda that Julian will get a full apology based on your details of the events it's just a shame because there are some excellent serving officers out there but just at the moment Hereford seems to have a lot of bad pennies.

[Bilbobobby]

deleted

[bobby47]

Bilbo bobby, Pal, I've no idea why your second post was deleted. My very warmest regards to you.

Pal, when you joined the Police many years ago they dressed you in a particular way which was quickly and easily recognisable to all members of the public. The uniform you wore was of course traditional in its design but more than anything it projected a view that here was someone of authority and someone who could be approached.

This uniform was designed and issued to our Police Officers after many decades of experience on how to present themselves to the people. It was no accident that your uniform was the way it was. Now, like many and most things, past experience of what went before have been discarded and the new lot, the hierarchy with little or no operational experience have rewritten the model for the entire Police service. Out have gone your old uniform which you were once proud to wear and in have come the robes and trappings that are more associated with a paramilitary organisations. Quite simply, if you dress Officers like they are now doing they'll do exactly what the dress code requires. They become aggressive, intolerant, they become stars in their own little movie and they develop traits that have nothing in common with what was required of you when you first joined the Police.

In days gone by if you met me staggering out of the battle cruiser howling at the moon you'd have pulled me to one side, given me some summary advice and sent me on my way. Now, all this has changed. That direct interaction between the public and the Police is fast disappearing and being replaced by a hit and run style that only serves to drive a wedge between us and them.

Is it all the fault of the Police? No it's not. Of course it's not. Society gets what it deserves and up to this particular moment in time we've got the Police Service we deserve. Detached, distant, often overly aggressive and having no real grasp of how this impacts upon the paying public.

Me? I've tried many times to engage in a conversation with Officers and I've discovered this......many, particularly the younger Officers cannot communicate. They simply can't chat to people. They don't know how to and from where I'm sitting, many have no desire to learn how to do it.

You, people like Roger Williams and many other Officers were good. Very good but like all generational things, the cycle of recruiting the right type of person has been broken and from what I can see it ain't going to get fixed anytime soon.

Once again, my very warmest regards to you pal.

[Dave99]

Bilbobobby - Having been fortunate enough to read  your post prior to your deletion (for your own sound and measured reasons I am sure)  - I just wanted to say how well written, educated and objective it was - a refreshing change  indeed from some of the posts I have seen here.

[Amanda Martin]

I couldn't have put that better than Bobby47 and I'm not going to try. 

 

In addition,  I would say that along with State mission creep has come a raft of new powers that give the Police an armoury of charges that can be deployed against us. With those powers comes responsibility to use them proportionately and a degree of exposure to officers to taking the consequences if they fail to do so. I have not identified the officers concerned in this incident but if anyone is suggesting that Julian and I somehow have a duty of care to them to keep quiet pending the outcome of the official investigation of our complaint, then I'm afraid I can't agree. 

 

As well growing dismay at the culture of militaristic detachment, latent menace and occasional overt abuse referred to, there is a concern that formal channels of complaint will not bring redress and I have no intention of writing a letter of complaint only for it to languish in someone's in tray until the red flag has no wind behind it.   We're not talking here about trivialities: these are matters that have serious implications for civil liberties and it's in the public interest to expose what happened to us, and what is undoubtedly happening to others, to the fresh air of public scrutiny. 

[Ubique]

Drawling said ( twice ) - - a refreshing change indeed from some of the posts I have seen here.

 

Just my thought and opinion, I know that I am not the most articulate when it comes to posting on this Forum , but I do post , to the best of my ability and there are others who probably are similar to me - but we post our thoughts and opinions to the best of our ability - if there was any set standard for posting I am sure that the Admin would have us sit a test / examination !

 

I accept fully that the posts from both Bobby and Bilbobobby were well thought out and very relevant as usual .

[Ubique]

Bilbobobby - cannot understand why you post your opinions and then delete them knowing full well that anybody who has posted on this story will receive an email with your post thereon ?

[Cambo]

Drawling said ( twice ) - - a refreshing change indeed from some of the posts I have seen here.

 

Just my thought and opinion, I know that I am not the most articulate when it comes to posting on this Forum , but I do post , to the best of my ability and there are others who probably are similar to me - but we post our thoughts and opinions to the best of our ability - if there was any set standard for posting I am sure that the Admin would have us sit a test / examination !

 

I accept fully that the posts from both Bobby and Bilbobobby were well thought out and very relevant as usual .

Well said ubique we all have an opinion whether others agree with it or not does not matter that's wot living in a so called free society is about our right to express our opinions & to debate them in a civil manner without intimidation or fear of persecution because of it.

So it's a shame that Bilbobobby's comments have been deleted as I never got the chance to read his viewpoint which I'm sure was a valid one?!

[Roger]

I'd think that Nick Semper ---> Sue Thomas ----> Hindlip is/are already on the radar of this thread .... ..Hardly a secret !!!!!! .... Not sure what the outcome is but this thread is interesting! 

[bobby47]

Well, if Roger is right, and he will be, they'll all, without even thinking about it, go into 'reputation management' mode. They simply cannot help themselves. This is the curse of public service and despite the high calibre of people like Sue Thomas, a fine fine person, she'll fall into the trap as well because they all do and they always will do. It's simply the way of things.

They'll gather together, discuss the impact this thread has had upon Local Policing, they'll convince themselves wrongly that elements within the writings are sub judicial and a likely threat to any future prosecution and then it'll be 'what do we bloody well do'. Some local Inspector, guided by the wisdom of the local media officer who's being paid a salary I'd strangle my wife for, will suggest that the proprietor of the HV domain be approached and get the thread pulled until someone with sense, probably Sue Thomas will explain that after Cardin jumped in and tweeted it to near on a hundred thousand people it's hardly going to bloody help their cause of reputation management.

Then, after realising that the Tweeter is Paul Cardin of Wirral In It Together, and it was he who tweeted a hundred thousand strangers, they'll go off on a tangent, completely forget about the purpose of their meeting, some fool will happen to bump into Bill Norman down at Plough Lane, who, when he hears the name Cardin will go into a rage! thump the tea lady and the word 'vexatious' gets into the mindset of the local Chief Constable.

Meanwhile, the West Mercia Legal Team draw up a letter addressed to Cardin branding him 'vexatious' for a third time, he gets it served on him on his doorstep, he tweets this latest affront to civil liberty and another five hundred thousand strangers get to hear about a guy called Julian who was minding his own business gazing through his vehicles windscreen when his world fell apart after a confrontation with an Officer who didn't like the question, 'why are you doing this to me'.

Can they manage this latest social media problem? No they bloody can't!

[greenknight]

I want to disagree with Bobby,s comments but I cannot.When I joined the Hereford Voice in the Autumn of last year I recognized the fact that here was a site where people can have there say good or bad, in the public interest or not but it's free speech committed to word which is why it is great to have opinion from the likes of Bobby,Paul,Dippy,Ubique,GK et al.In the last two weeks we have had two very different topics dominate the front page both of which have generated discussion. Whatever the outcome to Amanda's original post it was important to bring it to the attention of the site. Some may query the substance, some may question the eventual outcome but it has had an impact and generated thought.

Personally I believe that if we had a little more respect for each other life would be easier and in this case the turn of events would have been far different.

[Ubique]

Greenknight - another excellent post putting in clear language why the majority of us enjoy posting in this Forum .

Bobby , I should think that you are not far from the truth -

Just a thought , perhaps if Amanda has made a complaint it will be best ( for the time being ) to keep her own council and let Justice etc take its course . I accept , Amanda that you are an intelligent woman who may have already come to this conclusion.

[Amanda Martin]

I've taken your point, Ubique.  I've had mixed feelings, myself, about going as public  as I have and therefore confined my comments about the detail to this forum and my own Facebook page.  On balance, I did not consider it in anyone's interest to say nothing but I also see the danger of setting hares running before the dust has settled if you'll forgive the mixed metaphors.     I did a first draft of Julian's statement of complaint yesterday and he corrected a number of details I had misunderstood as follows: 

 

1. Julian made it clear that it was the lead officer and not his colleague who had been officious and hostile; the second officer was, in fact, courteous and  explained why it was that the officers were not required to give a reason for stopping him. At that point,  Julian was ready to cooperate fully and give details and only asked for the first officer's name; it was when he reached for pen and paper to make a note that he was handcuffed.  He has no recollection at all of being cautioned and was taken to the station without being told why or what he was supposed to have done; 

2.  Julian corrected my understanding that he had been "dragged" out of the car.  In fact, he said he was ordered out and physically "assisted" but this was probably short of dragging; 

3.  During the threatened strip search, it was clearly the custody sergeant who was leading events and Julian's complaints centre on the conduct of this individual .  He did not feel the same hostility from the other three who surrounded him in the cell, although the situation was, by definition, threatening but it was clear that they took their lead from the sergeant and were ready to follow orders.  Julian corrected my understanding that although there was an exaggerated display of "gloving up"  there were no "jokes and sarcasm" .  He told me that the threats were all serious and all officers made it clear that they were ready to use force if given the slightest provocation but, in the case of the custody sergeant, Julian felt that it had become personal;

 

I have also reflected on my telephone conversation with the arresting officer, whom I rang when Julian had not appeared some hour after the officer's visit to me at home.  At one point I said to him "Arguably you shouldn't have stopped him in the first place"  and I am sure that his response was that no reason was required.  There is a subtle but important distinction between not needing a reason and not being required to give that reason.  If it is really the case that officers need have no reason whatever for stopping us in the street, and there is inadequate redress for us when officers do it arbitrarily, then we really are well down the road towards a police state. 

Bobby47 has made some good points about reputation management. I think the arresting officer in this instance just miscalculated and then dug the hole deeper by using force and fabricating some spurious ex post facto justifications for his actions.  There's no doubt that this  constitutes a bad attitude but Julian didn't feel the militaristic aggression and sheer vicious latent brutality from him that he observed in the custody sergeant during his detention at the station and there's no doubt in our minds that the latter is not fit to be a police officer.    It only takes a small number of key individuals in authority to create a sense that a bad culture is pervasive and this is why the monitoring authorities need to act swiftly and decisively to protect not only the public but, crucially, the credibility and reputation of other officers who are out there dealing with the consequences of growing mistrust and resentment.   

Julian's not Raif Badawi, and we're keeping it in perspective, but an experience like this, not to mention the prospect of picking up a criminal record in your mid fifties, is surprisingly unsettling.  You have to go through it, really, to understand the impact but we're lucky:  we at least have the resources to make our case.  

As Greenknight says: it has generated thought and debate and this can only be a good thing. 

 

[Colin James]

Thanks Ubique and everyone who has posted.  Apparently the matter will be adjourned to the Crown Court when J pleads "Not Guilty".  What a waste of public money.  

 

Crown Court! What the hell is going on here? They are seeking a more harsh sentence then, if convicted? 

[Amanda Martin]

Colin, I believe the Magistrates' hearing on 23rd April will take his "Not Guilty" plea and the matter will be adjourned for jury trial in the Crown Court. 

[Colin James]

Colin, I believe the Magistrates' hearing on 23rd April will take his "Not Guilty" plea and the matter will be adjourned for jury trial in the Crown Court. 

 

Like you have already stated Amanda, what a total waste of public money!

[Cambo]

Crown Court! What the hell is going on here? They are seeking a more harsh sentence then, if convicted?

Scare tactics?! As it's usually the defendant who can have the option to be tried in crown court for lesser charges if they plead not guilty unless the charge is a serious one like murder,rape,armed robbery etc then the case would be adjourned for committal to crown court regardless of a guilty or not guilty plea?! On my understanding but they keep change things so this may have changed to???

I know if you commit a motoring offence it's @ Kidderminster magistrates court in the first instance.

[megilleland]

People might like to look at this video of our police force in operation acting for bailiffs. The police should be present to see there is no improper behaviour or breach of the peace but it seems now, the police only act in the interests of the corporations, banks and local authorities.

 

Meanwhile in London's Hatton Gardens the police didn't respond to the alarm alerting them to the jewel thieves removing millions of pounds worth of items from a bank vault. Maybe the full resources of the police force were up here in Moston, Manchester on April 9th 2015. How many officers can you count in this residential raid?

[WirralPC]

Police up to no good again. Now they're arresting political candidates.

 

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/04/13/police-arrest-parliamentary-candidate-for-putting-up-campaign-poster/

[megilleland]

You couldn't make it up!

[dippyhippy]

That's a very alarming read, Paul.

 

Must say, I know nothing about The Class War Party, or there Parliamentary Candidates. I shall do a little Googling. See what  I can find.....

[megilleland]

That's a very alarming read, Paul.

 

Must say, I know nothing about The Class War Party, or there Parliamentary Candidates. I shall do a little Googling. See what  I can find.....

 

I imagine most people would call them extreme and offensive. A bit like the present political establishment attacking UKIP all the time.

[Frank Smith]

This makes for disturbing reading. Good luck Julian, lets hope that justice prevails, but if found not guilty, what then? Can you sue the Police for wrongful arrest? Or is this a one way street?

[Amanda Martin]

I want to thank Grid Knocker, Roger and Mystery for the heads-up about who to contact.   I've submitted our complaint and received an acknowledgement from Bill Longmore within hours.  

I've never heard of Class War but I think we have problems at a number of levels.  There clearly are abuses occurring that are not sanctioned and these should be addressed but, in some ways, this is not as serious a problem as the wider political one.  We've had a series of anti-libertarian governments that have been legislating away our civil rights; once these laws are on the statute books the police have no alternative but to enforce them.

 

Somewhere in the middle is a shadowy twilight zone within which law enforcement agencies are being used to protect Establishment and corporate interests.      State mission creep has meant that increasingly the police are being used as a kind of publicly funded army and there is a vast array of sanctions at its disposal to ensure our compliance,  from intimidating journalists into keeping quiet about child abuse to incarcerating candidates on trumped up charges to prevent them from campaigning.  As an electorate we've become anaesthetised by consumerism and kept ignorant by inadequate education. We haven't noticed the net closing around us and now there's a double whammy:  the State has not only become over powerful and insufficiently accountable, but it has also outlawed the means by which we can make our objections felt by empowering the police to monitor and ban public protest, together with  the characterisation of anyone who objects as "domestic extremists".  I fear the remote threat of terrorism has been the Trojan Horse by which the State has tooled up to spy, monitor, threaten and coerce us all into political inertia.  Julian Assange is living proof of what happens if you rattle those cages too loudly.  

[greenknight]

Hopefully Amanda you just made your complaint to Mr Longmore without adding your other two paragraphs otherwise you might need Julians mobile! That's Mr Assange not your other half unless of course they are one of same.☺