...and Here's How Our Urban Streets Should Look...

[greenknight]

edhatton,  the Council's and the Highways Agency's own traffic data have confirmed that most traffic in the city is local and not trunk road traffic but I understand your scepticism.   Dippy is right:   doing things differently requires a leap of faith and whatever is done MUST command public support ; you cannot drag people along by the hair.  They need to believe it and embrace it or it won't work. Whether or not I'm elected, I would like to organise some meetings with some influential and knowledgeable speakers:  transport planners and experts who know far more about this than I do and can really paint that picture of how much better things could be if we can loosen our grip on the steering wheel.  I do hope you will come along and engage.  

In the meantime, I'm sorry you feel I have not earned your vote but I fully respect your decision.  We all have to follow our hearts in these matters and work things out for ourselves.   We're not always going to agree but the worst thing is apathy - while there is debate there is the prospect of progress.

 

In a previous post I questioned when this Highways Agency data was acquired because I can't see the relevance if acquired during a recession. As you don't seem to drive Amanda I can't see how you can understand the frustrations people have with the roads in this County. More traffic will come that's for sure whether we have a bypass or not however I know it will be worse without some form of alternative route around the city and that's before new house builds. If we had a bypass we could make it a toll road, income generator. Yes the M6 Toll does not have the traffic it could absorb but only because the owners got greedy and whacked the prices up.

You will forgive me but you can't compare Herefordshire with the over populated counties of the South East. To the west we have empty space and you can't really claim that South Shropshire is stuffed full of houses or businesses.

 

Traffic is coming and preparation is the key.

[Amanda Martin]

I spent eight years as a locum.  I have sat in a traffic jam all over the country and I have a carbon footprint to make Jonathan Porritt's eyes water.  

[greenknight]

Well then you've just blown your own argument out of the window because like me you've clearly found it necessary to use the car whether you like it or not(and clearly you don't)!

I'm a horse and cart man absolutely love 'em but it's just not practical.

I,'ll be honest with you Amanda I believe we will get a ring road in the end or at least two bridges east and west and politics will have a big hand. In the west the dualling of the A465 is coming our way and the Welsh Government needs better road links into South Wales from the North and the Midlands and Hereford sits right bang in the way. Yes someone will have to cough for sorting out the road/rail and river point at the lights near the border however once sorted its a straight line all the way to the Marches and Hereford city centre. No northern bound lorry driver in his right mind is going to use the road into Abergavenny and then have to drive south again and trundle through Monmouth,M50 and then head up the congestion racked M5.There will be a deal (one government to another but it will be sanctioned).We might get revenue from a congestion charge but it will happen there needs to be more jobs for the valleys and for that industry needs to return and industry needs working national infrastructure. The eastern route will also happen and to be honest the longer it takes for the process to start the worse the traffic will become until eventually when the big plans go in few will object because they will just want solutions not arguement they will be tired of it all.

[Cambo]

Well then you've just blown your own argument out of the window because like me you've clearly found it necessary to use the car whether you like it or not(and clearly you don't)!

I'm a horse and cart man absolutely love 'em but it's just not practical.

I,'ll be honest with you Amanda I believe we will get a ring road in the end or at least two bridges east and west and politics will have a big hand. In the west the dualling of the A465 is coming our way and the Welsh Government needs better road links into South Wales from the North and the Midlands and Hereford sits right bang in the way. Yes someone will have to cough for sorting out the road/rail and river point at the lights near the border however once sorted its a straight line all the way to the Marches and Hereford city centre. No northern bound lorry driver in his right mind is going to use the road into Abergavenny and then have to drive south again and trundle through Monmouth,M50 and then head up the congestion racked M5.There will be a deal (one government to another but it will be sanctioned).We might get revenue from a congestion charge but it will happen there needs to be more jobs for the valleys and for that industry needs to return and industry needs working national infrastructure. The eastern route will also happen and to be honest the longer it takes for the process to start the worse the traffic will become until eventually when the big plans go in few will object because they will just want solutions not arguement they will be tired of it all.

I have to agree with GK to get people out of there cars is the biggest problem you face how you achieve changing peoples attitudes into get out of there cars may prove to big a mount to climb but if you do manage to do it? you may well feel as if you've climbed Everest especially with more & more vehicles on our roads with the trend set to continue?!…it's going to be tough Amanda but I think you have sprite for the fight?!

[greenknight]

Agreed Cambo and I for one would be the very first to lose the car keys because I'm sick of it but it pays my salary and sorts out the mortgage on a small bungalow on the south east side of town.

[Amanda Martin]

green knight, this is about a lack of understanding both about how we could be doing things differently and where our current policy is taking us.  The worrying thing for me is that I know that you are probably in the majority in Herefordshire.    

 

I don't understand how I've blown my own argument out of the water.    When I worked in Midsomer Norton, Yeovil and Horncastle in Lincolnshire, I used my car because essentially  you cannnot get to Midsomer Nortom, Yeovil and Horncastle any other way.  When I worked in Bristol last year, I used the train and a very sh*te service it was too.    When I'm at home in Hereford, I mostly cycle but I do use my car for some journeys.  I have never said that we should all stop using cars tomorrow.  The point is that, at the moment, we have no choice and while we have no choice this fruitless destructive cycle of endless pointless  expensive roadbuilding will continue.   

 

What will happen to Herefordshire's local economy when we have turned the county into Slough?  We only have to look around the country to see the consequences of this policy.  It is insane.  Our problem is not an engineering one: it's a cultural one.  

[Amanda Martin]

..and by the way, greenknight,  what has happened in the South Wales valleys - next to my home patch - is a prime example of what happens to peripheral areas when you open up access with fast straight roads.    As we know, the rug was pulled from under these communities when the mines closed and all the Welsh Development Agency's attempts to lure industry back with roads and grants, aka bribes, failed miserably because it was against the grain of globalism and the centralising effect of road building.     The reason there is no manufacturing in Wales any more, or in Britain for that matter, is that cheap transport has spawned globalism and centralisation - both of which are a death sentence for local economies in developed countries.   Unemployment in the valleys is nothing whatever to do with the lack of roads and building more will not solve it.

 

The classic was the shmoozing of LG who were bribed to come and set up in a brand new purpose built factory that trashed two Sites of Special Scientific Interest on the Gwent Levels west of Newport.    As soon as the grant aid ran out they F*cked off and as far as I know, that white elephant is still sitting there empty - the same with the Ford plant outside Bridgend.  

 

Meanwhile,  all the actual, real jobs provided to people in the Valleys were destroyed when Newport Council's brilliant plan to build car based out of town retain and business parks meant  they couldn't get to work any more because they didn't have cars!  

 

I know all about South Wales and the WDA - I had this debate many times with the CBI and they just didn't get it even though the evidence of the fallure of their endless lobbying for new roads is everywhere.   

[Amanda Martin]

 

Here's the link to Amey's report on an eastern link.  This is the nitty gritty:  the reality of what an eastern crossing would do to Bartestree and the rest of the network.   Table 16 shows a time saving of 10.5 minutes between Rotherwas and Junction 7 M5.   10.5 mins. ..and there is no mention of induced traffic so we can assume that this has not been factored.    Incidentally, during a meeting with the Highways Agency attended by Colin, John Harrington and me in the aftermath of the felling of the Edgar Street trees, I asked Paul Hillman (HA) about traffic induction on the pinch point schemes at Edgar St and the Asda roundabout dog's breakfast.  I was told that it was not necessary to factor it in.  I then showed him the central government guidance to the contrary and he did not reply.   There is an agenda for roadbuilding and it's not congestion relief.   They are "career defining" .  

 

Whatever the preferred route, the integrity of the ancient Holywell Gutter Lane would be lost forever and there would be  "significant increases" in traffic volumes on the A438 and over existing structures so we can kiss goodbye to  Lugwardine Bridge.  

 

"The Lugwardine Bridge is a 16th Century three span stone arch bridge with an extension to the west (up-stream) to widen the carriageway with steel beams supporting a deck slab built in 1942. This structure was listed in 1967 by English Heritage as Grade II. Any works at this bridge require the Listed Building Consent and liaison with Herefordshire conservation officers. The stone arch structure is assessed at full strength with the steel beam and deck slab extension partially assessed based on steel beams alone due to lack of construction information relating to the concrete slab. The assessment of the widening, undertaken in 1993, identified corrosion and section loss which would have continually deteriorated to date. This extension is capable of carrying highway loading but abnormal loads are directed across the fully assessed arch structure. " 

 

 Building this road might save few minutes journey time for lorry drivers from South Wales, but  would achieve nothing in Hereford except a worse traffic problem in Hafod Road, Bodenham Road, Eign Road, Bartestree and Lugwarding. It would produce  marginal relief on Edgar Street but this would be wiped out very quickly by additional local journeys.    It would destroy the Lugg Meadows,  cost a fortune and in the meantime no doubt spawn a discussion about where the next road would go. I'm already getting deja vu.

 

​This is the kind of detail you have to get into to understand the predictions and cost/benefit analysis.  A minute of working motorists' time used to be worth 15p.    The parameters are spurious and the environmental and social costs - maintenance, accidents, policing, health and loss of habitat and natural assets - are usually ignored because how do you put a financial value on a habitat or an ancient landscape.

 

https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/media/6411095/Eastern_Links_Assessment_Report_Nov_2012.pdf

[greenknight]

I only hope Amanda that this does not keep you up at nights because it's becoming a rant.

 

Personally I'm just trying to remember the single biggest industry currently driving the recovery in the West Midlands and as much I love to eat local crisps and drink Herefordshire cider it isn't them!

[Amanda Martin]

Apologies  - I deal in facts not Daily Telegraph prejudices and I thought this was a discussion.   

 

 I would also point out that I started this thread and staying with it is not compulsory.   

[Amanda Martin]

[twowheelsgood]

Amanda, I've found your posts very interesting, even though I am male! In the short term, it seems to me that properly sequencing the traffic lights throughout the city, turning off some completely and implementing a 7pm-7am turn off on others will be a very quick and cheap thing to do. A bypass/relief road is neither. With a will, the whole thing could be sorted in 3-6 months and run for a 12 month trial period, the outcome of which should then shape the next move.

[greenknight]

I love that sketch but not because I'm sexist but because I have a cracking sense of humour!

You should use this saying which I think came from one of the Marx brothers( I would like to say sisters but that would be a lie)...It went something like this..

 

"Those are my principles and if you don't like them,well,I have others"

[dippyhippy]

Hi Two Wheels. This is kind of where I am with it. I posted  - number 55 - that to trial some of the smaller, cost effective options first, would surely be a sensible step to take.

 

There really isn't much to lose by doing this. Traffic, and the do we need a bypass/don't we need a bypass discussion has gone on for many, many years. Would one more year make a difference?

 

And that could be the banner under which these small but significant changes are rolled out....." One Year To Make A Difference!"

 

If after a trial, folks hadn't seen positive changes, then look again. My concern is once the road is built  -  it's built. No going back. Let's try the less "invasive" options first, and move forward from there???

 

Maybe thinking about a road solution, ahead of trialling a combination of these other options, would really be a case of putting the cart before the horse??

 

I would most definitely be prepared to do this in the first instance, rather than plump straight for an option which once done, could never be undone.

 

(And I just love fluffy kittens!)

[twowheelsgood]

dippy - you've eloquently restated what I was trying to say! Lets not forget the infamous 'traffic reversal' scheme foisted on us by the old City Council - we didn't want it, it was obvious it wouldn't work, it didn't work, it was ripped up in short order. The only difference with the bypass is that there will be no ripping up - we'll be stuck with it and all the consequences for a very long time. Let's try the obvious first.

[dippyhippy]

I hold my hands up, Two Wheels.....I know nothing about traffic data reports and Highway Agencies recommendations......I don't understand it!!

 

All I know is, it's got to be better to try the simple remedies first,  before moving onto the more complicated and costly ones.

 

Perhaps I'm over simplifying things.... but I've always been the first to say, I'm a simple soul!

[Amanda Martin]

Dippy and Two Wheels - one of you should be  the candidate !

 

I value greenknight as a sparring  partner far too much to bore him any further with my facts and logic, so here's a minor diversion:   I'm currently  looking out over a BT phone box with a large offensive advert for Domino's Pizza.  In the old days, phone boxes were quite attractive and were for making phone calls.  Nowadays their principal purpose seems to be to raise revenue from advertising. Have we all been conditioned into thinking that private companies have a God given right to infest the streetscape with trashy adverts for crap fast-food or the latest big telly?   

 

It was actually Julian who pointed this out.  There's a strong streak of anarchism in him and he's really good at noticing things  that I confess I have just factored in like everyone else. Now he's drawn my attention to it, it's really irritating me but I suppose it stops me thinking about transport stuff.  

 

[Amanda Martin]

That didn't last long.  I was doing OK until my daughter sent me this: 

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/may/03/bikes-vs-cars-film-war-cyclists-drivers-fredrik-gertten-interview

[Alex]

 

Here's the link to Amey's report on an eastern link.  This is the nitty gritty:  the reality of what an eastern crossing would do to Bartestree and the rest of the network.   Table 16 shows a time saving of 10.5 minutes between Rotherwas and Junction 7 M5.   10.5 mins. ..and there is no mention of induced traffic so we can assume that this has not been factored.    Incidentally, during a meeting with the Highways Agency attended by Colin, John Harrington and me in the aftermath of the felling of the Edgar Street trees, I asked Paul Hillman (HA) about traffic induction on the pinch point schemes at Edgar St and the Asda roundabout dog's breakfast.  I was told that it was not necessary to factor it in.  I then showed him the central government guidance to the contrary and he did not reply.   There is an agenda for roadbuilding and it's not congestion relief.   They are "career defining" .  

 

You really need to get over the felling of the Edgar St tree's Amanda. I think it looks worse now than ever because of the scarf wrapping tree huggers campaign! It's like a dogs back leg, with one odd tree at the bottom. In my opinion, they should of cut them down totally in order to make progress on the essential road works needed, leaving the 3 tree's as they have near the top of the road by the roundabout. These tree's will end up coming down in the long term in my opinion anyway. 

[Steve Major]

You really need to get over the felling of the Edgar St tree's Amanda. I think it looks worse now than ever because of the scarf wrapping tree huggers campaign! It's like a dogs back leg, with one odd tree at the bottom. In my opinion, they should of cut them down totally in order to make progress on the essential road works needed, leaving the 3 tree's as they have near the top of the road by the roundabout. These tree's will end up coming down in the long term in my opinion anyway. 

 

 

 

I am pleased that someone is brave enough to comment on this topic, I thought the whole tree saving campaign caused more hassle in the end. I agree that is is a right mess now, should of chopped down that end tree and had a straight road instead of the silly stuck out piece near the football ground. I like tree's but sometimes they need to be felled in order to progress. Phil Edwards has the stupid idea of a tree boulevard on Belmont Road, what planet is he on? They do not look after the tree's, bushes and grass now! 

[twowheelsgood]

As we're on trees in urban streets, is it me or is every single one of the new trees in the central reservation of Newmarket Street dead? There doesn't appear to be any buds or leaves on them. There will be a planning condition controlling this, so if they are, they should be replaced.

[twowheelsgood]

That didn't last long.  I was doing OK until my daughter sent me this: 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/may/03/bikes-vs-cars-film-war-cyclists-drivers-fredrik-gertten-interview

 

There is a very weird disconnect in this country between the tens of thousands of folk who turned out for the Tour de France and currently the Tour de Yorkshire - a new phenomena in this country, and yet the average cyclist on the road going about their business is seen as a legitimate target by drivers, many of whom are most likely the same folk.

[Cambo]

Dippy and Two Wheels - one of you should be the candidate !

 

I value greenknight as a sparring partner far too much to bore him any further with my facts and logic, so here's a minor diversion: I'm currently looking out over a BT phone box with a large offensive advert for Domino's Pizza. In the old days, phone boxes were quite attractive and were for making phone calls. Nowadays their principal purpose seems to be to raise revenue from advertising. Have we all been conditioned into thinking that private companies have a God given right to infest the streetscape with trashy adverts for crap fast-food or the latest big telly?

 

It was actually Julian who pointed this out. There's a strong streak of anarchism in him and he's really good at noticing things that I confess I have just factored in like everyone else. Now he's drawn my attention to it, it's really irritating me but I suppose it stops me thinking about transport stuff.

 

People don't really use public phones anymore so I guess the phone companies are quite happy to use as advertising hoards too because it's extra revenue for them & they are part of big business!

 

The old red boxes where a more attractive phone box & more difficult to put advertising all over although inside you maybe subjected to calling cards left there by the ladies of the night!

 

 

[Amanda Martin]

As we're on trees in urban streets, is it me or is every single one of the new trees in the central reservation of Newmarket Street dead? There doesn't appear to be any buds or leaves on them. There will be a planning condition controlling this, so if they are, they should be replaced.

 

Yes I wondered that.   So,  the old trees are gone, the new trees are dead, the approach to the city is spoiled, the Conservation area is degraded and the traffic problem is worse than ever.   An unmitigated success then.  

[Steve Major]

Yes I wondered that.   So,  the old trees are gone, the new trees are dead, the approach to the city is spoiled, the Conservation area is degraded and the traffic problem is worse than ever.   An unmitigated success then.  

 

Exactly!!! I wonder how much this whole bloody tree issue has actually cost us? 

 

I agree that is is a right mess now, should of chopped down that end tree and had a straight road instead of the silly stuck out piece near the football ground.

 

[Amanda Martin]

There is a very weird disconnect in this country between the tens of thousands of folk who turned out for the Tour de France and currently the Tour de Yorkshire - a new phenomena in this country, and yet the average cyclist on the road going about their business is seen as a legitimate target by drivers, many of whom are most likely the same folk.

 

I was struck by the comment about "queue culture".   People stressed and frustrated by sitting in traffic jams resent the progress made by people on bikes; they can't move so they don't want anyone else to move either.   It takes a critical mass of people to change behaviour. 

 

It's not only cyclists who suffer from the tyranny of driver arrogance - pedestrians are just as much at risk.    People in cars won't tolerate being held up even for a few seconds and it's very interesting to watch pedestrian behaviour and the implied deference to drivers in the body language.   Have you ever noticed how elderly pedestrians will drag themselves across as fast as possible so as not to hold a driver up, even where they have priority?  It's as if someone is cracking a whip behind them.  

 

Try taking a bit longer than the allowed five seconds to cross a busy road and see what the response is.  Last October,   I saw someone who was clearly "special needs"  blasted up on Ledbury Road.   She hadn't stepped out:  she was already in the process of crossing when the driver turned right from Eign Road and was confronted with a slight delay.   This is how low we have sunk as a society.  We're not yet ripping cyclists' arms off and throwing them in ditches but Coroners are already blaming dead cyclists for not having dressed up like a builder before venturing out.  Well: they were "asking for it", weren't they?

 

 

[dippyhippy]

Two weeks ago, I was in the middle of The Newmarket Street crossing. A visually impaired lady with a white stick was standing opposite, also waiting to cross.

 

The traffic was nose to tail, the lights changed, with the crossing space completely blocked.

 

The lady stepped out, swishing her stick from side to side. Her stick hit a car..... and he tooted his horn. Beyond belief.

 

I gave him such a filthy look, and mouthed the words.." Bloody idiot." at him..... he looked away.

 

What on earth he was thinking, I simply do not know.

[dippyhippy]

Evening Alex!

 

I realise not everybody will feel as strongly about The Edgar Street Trees as I, and many others did. I am pleased that some were saved, in my opinion, with a little more planning over how far across the OLM would be built, there would have been no reason to have lost any of them.

 

That aside, and without wanting to go over old ground, it was the way that this was done, which really sticks in my throat. Underhanded and deceitful, are two words that spring to mind!

 

There may only be a few survivors, but if these were ever under threat again, I would happily get knitting to adorn them with scarves once again!

 

I absolutely believe that amongst the myriad of benefits trees bring, they positively improve the aesthetics of any stretch of grey road, making for a much more pleasant environment for all.

 

Each to their own!

[Alex]

Evening Alex!

 

I realise not everybody will feel as strongly about The Edgar Street Trees as I, and many others did. I am pleased that some were saved, in my opinion, with a little more planning over how far across the OLM would be built, there would have been no reason to have lost any of them.

 

That aside, and without wanting to go over old ground, it was the way that this was done, which really sticks in my throat. Underhanded and deceitful, are two words that spring to mind!

 

There may only be a few survivors, but if these were ever under threat again, I would happily get knitting to adorn them with scarves once again!

 

I absolutely believe that amongst the myriad of benefits trees bring, they positively improve the aesthetics of any stretch of grey road, making for a much more pleasant environment for all.

 

Each to their own!

 

Good evening dippy, 

 

I remember how it was done too, I agree that it could of been done better, I do not think anyone disagree's with that, but I think sometimes you have to sacrifice in order to achieve something or progress. I just thought the whole scarf and tree hugging prayers were a little pathetic and it made me cringe to be honest. The 3 tree's that they have kept at the top end would of been fine for me, this council DO NOT look after the tree's and grass now like Steve Major has pointed out. I think I am just fed up with hearing about these bloody tree's and clinging onto this tree debate, 'get over it' 

 

The OLM could of been built a lot better too and I sincerely believe they have missed opportunities but its here now and I really like it, we cannot change the past but I would push for a roof between the shops, giving the shoppers a better experience especially in the winter. Car park should be free too.

[dippyhippy]

Thanks for responding Alex.

 

The symbolic expressions which you so eloquently described, were just that..... expressions.

 

They didn't hurt anybody, they didn't cause distress, and they didn't cost the taxpayer any money.

 

I'm all for progress, but surely as we only have one planet, we should at the very least try to look after it?? If it takes a little more time, a little more effort, or costs, in the short term, a little more money, don't we have a duty to try these options first?

 

Long term, not only will we benefit, but our children and grandchildren.