EU referendum - In or Out?

[megilleland]

With the General Election now over - there is possibly only two years (2017) before we get a referendum on whether to stay in the EU or get out. Having believed we would have had a change of government, nationally and locally by now, I do not have much confidence that any referendum will be conducted fairly in order that the ruling poitical parties get the result they and the EU want.

 

What are the benefits of being in or out for Hereford and the county? Maybe some information and facts through this topic could help us make a reasoned decision when voting, although I think we will be staying in the EU at any cost. Not for the benefit of the citizens, but for all those entwined in the machinations of the EU political and monetary systems.

[Colin James]

This is a very important debate Martin, so I have added a Poll, hope thats okay with you?

 

Well personally I think it would be a mistake to leave the EU, that said, I do think we need to take more control of our own laws and I also think the Human Rights Act needs updating big time!

[Mick]

Vital for the economy and business that the EU brings so I would stay in for sure. 

[megilleland]

I see the Greeks are thinking about defaulting next month and the provincial and local elections in Spain yesterday have broken up the two party controls with a group of "citizen parties" gaining many votes. Change looks as if it could be on the way and Cameron and Labour are scrambling to justify that we stay in, only I reckon, to pick up the bill.

[ragwert]

I don't think they are thinking about defaulting they will as they don't have the money.
There are more than a few reasons to leave the EU but there are more reasons why we should stay in.

[Victor Wright]

This is a very important debate Martin, so I have added a Poll, hope thats okay with you?

 

Well personally I think it would be a mistake to leave the EU, that said, I do think we need to take more control of our own laws and I also think the Human Rights Act needs updating big time!

 

I agree and I think leaving the eu would be an economic disaster. 

[Roger]

OUT is my vote. I'm historically a Tory voter and still am by the way. My basic issue is 'Free Movement'. It's not even an illegal immigrant or benefit issue for me. Too many people are arriving perfectly legally to do their stuff without draining the system. They have got to live somewhere. All the usual arguments. You cannot sustain 300k per year extra because Britain is more attractive. I'm not sure 'Free Movement' could be negotiated. Anything else is fiddling around the edges.  

[Glenda Powell]

Like Roger I vote OUT, The EU are taking Britain for a ride, imposing fines on us, because we have found our voice instead of being lead by the nose which the EU have, and still trying to do.

[Paul Jones]

In for me too

[mystery]

Out

[Paul Neades]

In for me, controll the boarders and immigration to an acceptance and responsible level/system. What we would loose In trade would out weigh any fines and benifits. It's all about the bigger picture.

[M. Preece]

In for me, controll the boarders and immigration to an acceptance and responsible level/system. What we would loose In trade would out weigh any fines and benifits. It's all about the bigger picture.

 

Yep thats about it, I would vote to stay in too.

[Steve Major]

Defo out!!!

[Dave99]

In for me, controll the boarders and immigration to an acceptance and responsible level/system. What we would loose In trade would out weigh any fines and benifits. It's all about the bigger picture.

Its a fair point you raise Paul, and i would agree it is the sensible choice if the controls you mentioned  are returned to an acceptable level -  along with a UK opt of any future EU legislation if required.. The question is however if these controls are not forthcoming so we are unable to manage our affairs to the extent you mentioned, do we still stay in then?

[Colin James]

How come some countries get away with some of the laws that we seem to have to impose? Or is this down to the choice of that country? For example, you cannot smoke in doors here in the UK (3 sided walls etc) however, I was recently in Poland and they have smoking and non smoking rooms in pubs. One club had a separate room (well ventilated) just for smokers, same in Greece.

 

Roadworks is another, I appreciate that health and safety is way OTT in the UK, but surely a few signs stating roadworks ahead is sufficient? Here we have 4 miles of warnings together with about 4000 traffic cones then there are lights and warning all around the hole in the road lol makes me laugh as in most other EU countries there are a few signs with a bit of coloured tape around the hole in the road and it works fine.

 

My partner is Polish and she can never understand how we have 2 separate taps in the bathroom, one which can scald you and the other is freezing cold, they have mixers, so how is our system safer? Many times she has moaned that she has almost burnt here hand. These are just a few..

[Jimbo]

This is a topic which will hear lots about in the next 2 years or so, Im undecided as what I see as best for the UK, both camps make quite compleling reasons for either staying in or leaving, I'm not so conserned with the GDP that we would lose or gain or how big the national ecomony is, I'm more concerned about the quality of life and if having a couple less quid in my pocket means that I live in a safer country then I will happily vote to leave the E.U. I guess for me I will give David Cameron time to negotiate a better deal for us then make my decision.

[greenknight]

For me it's not straightforward and if presented with a referendum voting slip with a simple in/out then it's a bloody difficult decision.

I believe in the original ideal of what the European union was supposed to be about but over time the self creating beurocrats bedded in like they do in governments, councils and the like...the same has happened with the NHS and each one of these ticks,sucks the life out of its host until one day when they have gorged themselves stupid they drop off and away in the breeze and wallow in their greed. I had hoped that a Commenwealth model with the benefits of free trade and independent legal guidance would have been enough so where did it go wrong?

For now it's a vote to remain for me ..however like others above I want changes but more than anything I want to maintain my identity,and remain knight of my own castle and if I'm having a bad day I can pull up the drawbridge anytime I like. I'm digging out the moat I'm asking my parishioners to come inside the walls because the neighbours are restless.

 

The European Union is like a castle and we can feel safer within its defining walls but should we stand alone as we have done before are we strong enough, do we still have the courage of the past for we are a different divided country now.

 

Perhaps we shall see!

[dippyhippy]

Given the result of the election, both local and national, I'd say we are more divided as a country than ever before, Green Knight.

 

The gaping chasm between the haves and the have nots, has never been greater. And more folk than ever before appear to not give a toss about anybody who is vulnerable in anyway. This selfish, self serving attitude of so many folks these days, is the one thing that will eventually be the ruin of this country for many people.

 

I have no idea what will put the "Great" back into Great Britain.

 

I'm equally sure that The Conservatives don't either.

[Roger]

For me it's not straightforward and if presented with a referendum voting slip with a simple in/out then it's a bloody difficult decision.

I believe in the original ideal of what the European union was supposed to be about but over time the self creating beurocrats bedded in like they do in governments, councils and the like...

 

I remember that original Common Market vote well. I was very interested in the subject but was too young to vote. It was 1975. Loads of stickers were handed out to promote the campaign to stay in. I even had one on my coat meself. As I recall it was promoted as a trading situation. With a vote about trade integration. 67% voted to stay in.

 

I bet Cameron has got a whole department of people working on the wording of the referendum question. You can psychologically ask the same question in different ways to load it in your favour. 

[greenknight]

I remember that original Common Market vote well. I was very interested in the subject but was too young to vote. It was 1975. Loads of stickers were handed out to promote the campaign to stay in. I even had one on my coat meself. As I recall it was promoted as a trading situation. With a vote about trade integration. 67% voted to stay in.

 

I bet Cameron has got a whole department of people working on the wording of the referendum question. You can psychologically ask the same question in different ways to load it in your favour.

 

Around my time as well Roger. I actually believe the shorter the question ..the closed probe if you like makes it more difficult to answer. A community whatever the size is good thing to be a part of but only when it is of benefit to everyone within it and not just a select few.

 

 

I agree with Dippy in the dangers of division. Many still cannot see or perhaps want to ignore the stress fractures that are occurring but in the end when a true break occurs you are left in immeasurable pain and this can be distressing even for the unattached onlooker.

[Roger]

The wording is expected to be 'Should the UK remain as a member of the European Union?''

 

The question is sourced from the DM ... 

 

The whole debate has been whether we should leave .... 

 

The question could be, but won't be, 'Should the UK leave the European Union' .... 

[dippyhippy]

According to "The Economist" the wording has already been agreed.

 

Following debate about how the referendum in Scotland was worded....(they eventually settled upon "Should Scotland leave the United Kingdom?")

 

The wording for the referendum due at some point in 2017 will be...." Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the United Kingdom?"

 

At least this is a closed question, without too much ambiguity.....!

[dippyhippy]

How funny!

 

My other half has just told me that Hereford Times are running a poll on their Facebook page, "Do you think the UK should remain a member of the EU?"

 

Hmmm. Let me see.

 

I wonder where they got that idea from....??

[greenknight]

Interestingly though the vote is running in reverse to ours!

[Jimbo]

According to the Daily Express, France and Germany are going to try and set the corporation tax for the country's in the E.U, if that happens the corporation tax rate which is currently 20% in this country and a lot lower than France and Germany will rise dramatically resulting in a loss of jobs and growth. if this is true it will change the opinions of the voters that are at the moment undecided and give the No vote a massive boost.

[dippyhippy]

It would indeed Jimbo.

 

I honestly feel we can do better apart. We can negotiate our own trade agreements with Europe.

 

Norway has access to the EU market, yet isn't bound by their rules and regulations. It's worked well for them, why not us??

[greenknight]

The timing for a referendum on an exit from the E.U?

At the moment the suggestion is it will be 2017 however I'm not so sure. If things continue in Greece & Italy with the refugees falling on the shores then I feel it will be a lot sooner. If it's left to late then the answer will be a vote NO because the UK won't want an association with the problems for the price will be to heavy.

It won't be about business it won't be about money it will be about having the ability to decide how best to deal with immigration without be obliged by EU legislation.

So with this in mind the pro Europeans may play their hand early because it maybe the only way a yes vote will win through.

[Roger]

The timing for a referendum on an exit from the E.U?

At the moment the suggestion is it will be 2017 however I'm not so sure. If things continue in Greece & Italy with the refugees falling on the shores then I feel it will be a lot sooner. If it's left to late then the answer will be a vote NO because the UK won't want an association with the problems for the price will be to heavy.

It won't be about business it won't be about money it will be about having the ability to decide how best to deal with immigration without be obliged by EU legislation.

So with this in mind the pro Europeans may play their hand early because it maybe the only way a yes vote will win through.

 

This is all very complicated GK ... As you will know .... I get the general feeling that the vote would go to stay in if it was held at the moment (hence the concession today involving the vote not being on May 5 next year to appease the EuroSceptics in Parliament ~ with the Govt. winning today on their ballot stuff in Parliament after a blanket Labour abstention). Trade issues are very important but I think the Man/Woman in the street is going to vote on the 'Free Movement' issue within the EU. The arrivals/departures are + 300k per year for arrivals at the last count. They are not a drain on benefits (as Cameron is focusing on) but they are having multiple other impacts. Plus I don't think it's right that you can move here with a clean slate having just finished your Murder term of imprisonment last week in some obscure EU Country .... 

[greenknight]

Yes Roger at the moment it would be a vote to stay in however the longer they leave it the more likely a vote for removal.

Once we get the first crossings across the channel and it will happen unfortunately however dangerous then the problem has truly arrived on our doorstep.

[Roger]

Yes Roger at the moment it would be a vote to stay in however the longer they leave it the more likely a vote for removal.

Once we get the first crossings across the channel and it will happen unfortunately however dangerous then the problem has truly arrived on our doorstep.

 

I can't see a Mediterranian style crossing of the Channel ever happening. Are you on about 3 men in a boat or serious numbers?