EU referendum - In or Out?

[Osmosis]

Well I don't bloody care about the economics of it all. I simply don't want to host millions of people who are here for the money and the free public services and don't care or love my Country.

But, if it is simple and straightforward economics that'll make you place your cross in the box that says, 'Out', then consider this and particularly the Nations of the former Soviet Bloc and the impact the EU economics have upon them.

Take poor Poland for example. Stripped of millions of their young people who've abandoned their homeland and invested themselves and their talents in the economy of our Country, they've got the huge advantage of not having to pay and care for their former citizens but their society, both socially and economically have become stagnant. Indeed, so heavily dependant upon pound sterling sent home to be recycled in their economy to prop up their fragile and ailing progress to attain some sort of near parity with the West, they've become hostages to the fortunes of the EU.

They are no longer able to develop themselves and modernise because their future, their bloody youngsters, have tipped up here to aid our economic aspirations. How can Poland possibly extricate themselves from this madness, create a better Poland when they've no manufacturing output or economic activity that doesn't involve Britsh Pound Sterlng or Euros earned and generated beyond their borders.

Since 2004 near on twenty one million have left the East region of Central and East Europe,flown the nest, abandoned their nations to work faster, cheaper and harder than everyone else. You tell me. Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West? How on earth does it benefit these Nations if all their youngsters leave and invest themselves in a foreign Country?

Bobby I think your comments about a brain drain in Poland are pertinent, although I find your attitude towards migrant workers hard to take. If the UK decides to leave the EU, this will not affect Polish migration, they will still continue to work in Ireland and elsewhere. At the time Poland joined the EU in 2004, the country’s unemployment rate was 19%, and a youth unemployment rate of 40% made employment in the UK, even in low-skilled jobs, an attractive option for young Poles. A convoluted tax system in Poland makes starting a business and creating jobs extremely difficult. For the millions of Poles who emigrated over the last few years, there were no viable employment opportunities at home. But Poland's own economy is developing. It was the only EU country to avoid recession during the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Poland does not want to leave the EU despite this brain-drain - they are benefitting enormously from EU funding, which is as it should be given the disadvantages Poland endured economically after the war. Brexit will make no difference to Polish emigration or the Polish economy, other than to deprive it of funds which expat Poles send home. 

PS I employ a young Polish man, and know many others. He has been here for eight years. I have only ever found the Poles to be courteous and appreciative of everything they have here. They are not freeloaders. They are not the something-for-nothing types who spit on the cash dispensers and spend all day outside MacDonalds dropping rubbish and puking up outside nightclubs - how much civic pride and love for country do you think these natives exhibit?

PPS Your words "Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West?" remind me of Paul Nuttall and Stewart Lee's riff on his comments - worth watching if you haven't already seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ

[Cambo]

I think about 65% of the electorate turned out in 2015, of that percentage, only a small proportion will have even heard of TTIP, still fewer understand the nuances of investor/state dispute resolution.

Evening osmosis you are right when it comes to TTIP none of us really know much about it but I have a sneaky suspicion that you do?…all I know is it's bad!

 

So here's my question this TTIP deal is it decided by the EU or do individual member states have the option on whether or not to sign up to it?

[Osmosis]

Evening osmosis you are right when it comes to TTIP none of us really know much about it but I have a sneaky suspicion that you do?…all I know is it's bad!

 

So here's my question this TTIP deal is it decided by the EU or do individual member states have the option on whether or not to sign up to it?

Hello Cambo. Unfortunately, the deal is decided by the EU. But our government is fully behind it of course, because it favours corporations and will eviscerate our democracy (what's left of it). There is still a petition going which you can sign if you're against it https://stop-ttip.org/ but it's also worth finding out about. Those in favour claim it will create jobs and reduce trade barriers, but the reality is really shocking. It's worth watching this video 

which explains it very well. David Malone is a blogger I follow, and stood last year for the Green Party. I'm not a Green supporter myself, but Malone is a very good speaker and comes across very well.

[Cambo]

Thanks osmosis I will have a listen to mr Malone although it might take a couple of sittings!

 

In the mean time I have another question or two what will happen with this deal should the vote to leave succeed? Will we be bound by this deal if the EU go ahead & sign up to it?

[Osmosis]

Thanks osmosis I will have a listen to mr Malone although it might take a couple of sittings!

 

In the mean time I have another question or two what will happen with this deal should the vote to leave succeed? Will we be bound by this deal if the EU go ahead & sign up to it?

To be honest I'm not sure. But, bilateral trade agreements are being signed between nations all the time, and the really dangerous element of TTIP, which is the investor/state dispute resolution (ISDS) I mentioned above (allowing foreign companies to sue entire nations in special tribunals for the alleged expropriation of future profits through changes in laws or regulations) are routinely included in these. Eurotunnel recently sued the UK and French governments under ISDS and were required by a private arbitration tribunal to pay out nearly 24 million euros for failing to provide adequate security around the entrance to the Channel Tunnel between 1999 and 2002. These fines are obviously met by the tax payer. At the tribunal, we have no right of appeal (it's not a court by the way - these things are decided by corporate lawyers). So what I'm saying is, although TTIP is horrendous, these things are being signed off all the time between nations whether we're in the EU or not, with the blessing of the likes of David Cameron and his friends in global corporations. Kerrching! Worth persevering with the video - it is long, but he brings some humour into it.

[Cambo]

Thanks osmosis

 

From what I've seen/heard from mr Malone so far then I think I will stick with it!

 

I will say the impression I'm getting from this particular bilateral trade agreement is it's not just bad its very bad!

 

It would be interesting to know what a in/out vote would mean for the UK on TTIP? as I think it could have a big impact on the vote?…Especially if people wake up to what this deal entails & how bad it is!!

[greenknight]

My understanding friends is that it makes little or no difference being in or out of the EU when it comes to TTIP. A brotherhood for the corporates started across the pond bigger than governments and countries alike.

[megilleland]

The Independent - 3rd February 2016

This secret UK-Eurotunnel tribunal reveals something disturbing about refugees and TTIP

 

Other infamous examples of ISDS include Philip Morris, the tobacco giant, suing the Australian government for introducing plain cigarette packaging

 

It has just been revealed that the UK was forced to pay €8 million to Eurotunnel for costs incurred preventing migrants entering the UK between 1999 and 2002.

 

The figure – revealed in an FOI response to campaign group War on Want – might not seem that much in the grand scheme of government spending, but it is important for several reasons.

 

Firstly the Eurotunnel case was an example of the controversial Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS) – secret tribunals where private companies can sue national governments for loss of profits. Other infamous examples of ISDS include Philip Morris, the tobacco giant, suing the Australian government for introducing plain cigarette packaging and Swedish energy company Vatenfall taking the German government to court for phasing out nuclear power.

 

(more)

 

Maybe employees will be able to sue their employers for loss of earnings when made redundant? I doubt it.

[Osmosis]

 

The Independent - 3rd February 2016

 

Maybe employees will be able to sue their employers for loss of earnings when made redundant? I doubt it.

 

Your cut and paste jobs from the newspapers are always appreciated, but this headline is lazy scaremongering. There is nothing disturbing about refugees to reveal in the article; it's a cynical attempt to link them to TTIP and the horrors that that contains.

[Gentle Giant]

. . . Most people couldn't give a toss . . .

That's one thing we certainly agree on.

 

You and I are much closer to accord than you realise. We differ primarily in the way each might seek to tackle the issues. I believe that it is easier to achieve change if we, as a country, actually have a say in our future as opposed to a 1/28th vote in a committee in which we are likely to be ignored and whose decisions can and will be overridden by the Commission, if that is what suits them.

 

When the people are persuaded to arise from their fat apathetic arses – usually because someone is hurting their pockets (poll tax riots) – they can and do achieve great things. Governments that can be voted out, even with pathetically low turn-outs, still pay attention as opposed to unelected appointees who are ultimately answerable to no-one.

 

A century ago the likes of radium and asbestos were viewed as being of great benefit to mankind. The truth of the science which showed the dangers was concealed, but ultimately the people arose to put an end to the abuses. Half a century ago the same happened with DDT. Commercial pressures will eventually be overcome in the case of more recent substances. Man just has a nasty habit of needing to reinvent the wheel with each new generation.

 

We could debate details until the genetically modified dairy production units return to their approved and regulated accommodation but the fundamental questions remain: Do you believe that democracy has had its day? Would you prefer to live under a dictatorship? Do you want your children to have to pay for their own healthcare? Do you want corporations to be more powerful than democratically elected governments? Do you want a say in your and your children's future or would you prefer serfdom?

 

To remain in the EU is to agree to serfdom, whether we like it or not.

 

I have said before that all major empires eventually collapse under the weight of their own administration, regulation and taxation. I believe it is better to get out of the EU now and be ready to help pick up the pieces, rather than stay in and be buried under the rubble.

[bobby47]

Osmosis, please don't think for a single moment that I have a poor opinion of the Polish migrants. I simply used them as an example. That said, if it helps you trying to figure out me, let me say this, I have an equally unwelcoming attitude to every single citizen of the EU that abandons their homeland for Western money. My view is its a betrayal of their nation and I know that I would never leave England for money. In short, this is my Country and I now no longer wish to share it with others who take and take and pretend to me and themselves that they're entitled to it all because they've slipped the exchequer a few quid in tax and national insurance payments.

As for the economic argument, and my proposition that the entire model the EU is following is a bag of rats, they are the thoughts and teachings of John Maynard Keynes and not something I've pulled out of the air. In short, he says, and I bloody believe him even though he's dead, if you become dependant upon a vast cheap labour force that'll work faster, harder and cheaper than anyone else they will make a wealthy few richer and the vast majority poorer because of the high subsidy levels required to fund the fun.

But worse, he says, and I believe him, when a disproportionate sum of money earned in one economy and recycled elsewhere, namely not earned and spent here, it's an economic recipe for disaster.

I repeat, all these impoverished Countries, particularly those from Central and East Asia are tied and bound to an economic model that halts their home country development because their kids chose to leave and seek a better life in the West. Whichever way you dress this, the EU is the biggest man made mistake since Germany decided they needed more living space.

[ragwert]

David Cameron being humiliated..By his own back benchers

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-david-cameron-being-humiliated-7302331

[Osmosis]

That's one thing we certainly agree on.

 

You and I are much closer to accord than you realise. We differ primarily in the way each might seek to tackle the issues. I believe that it is easier to achieve change if we, as a country, actually have a say in our future as opposed to a 1/28th vote in a committee in which we are likely to be ignored and whose decisions can and will be overridden by the Commission, if that is what suits them.

 

When the people are persuaded to arise from their fat apathetic arses – usually because someone is hurting their pockets (poll tax riots) – they can and do achieve great things. Governments that can be voted out, even with pathetically low turn-outs, still pay attention as opposed to unelected appointees who are ultimately answerable to no-one.

 

A century ago the likes of radium and asbestos were viewed as being of great benefit to mankind. The truth of the science which showed the dangers was concealed, but ultimately the people arose to put an end to the abuses. Half a century ago the same happened with DDT. Commercial pressures will eventually be overcome in the case of more recent substances. Man just has a nasty habit of needing to reinvent the wheel with each new generation.

 

We could debate details until the genetically modified dairy production units return to their approved and regulated accommodation but the fundamental questions remain: Do you believe that democracy has had its day? Would you prefer to live under a dictatorship? Do you want your children to have to pay for their own healthcare? Do you want corporations to be more powerful than democratically elected governments? Do you want a say in your and your children's future or would you prefer serfdom?

 

To remain in the EU is to agree to serfdom, whether we like it or not.

 

I have said before that all major empires eventually collapse under the weight of their own administration, regulation and taxation. I believe it is better to get out of the EU now and be ready to help pick up the pieces, rather than stay in and be buried under the rubble.

 

Well I feel like I’m flogging a dead horse here, but as a recreational polemicist I’m quite enjoying the debate.

 

Your hyperbole (dictatorship? Serfdom?) needs to be challenged.

As things stand in the UK we each have a single vote for just one out of 650 MPs. We have no vote on who becomes Prime Minister, no vote on the make-up of the cabinet, no vote on the members of the House of Lords, no vote on the members of the Civil Service, or the heads of government departments. The EU is  arguably more representative:

The people vote for members of the European Parliament, who represent them in more or less precisely the same way as in the House of Commons. On the European Council and Council of the European Union, the ministers and heads of government of the member states represent and take decisions on behalf of their people, just as they do domestically and when dealing with other international bodies.

In the Commission, the governments of each member state – all representative of the people of those states – nominate a representative, who is then quizzed and ratified or rejected by the members of the European Parliament. What's not to like?

 

While I’m at it I’m going to challenge a couple of other misapprehensions that get bandied about on here about Brexit. “Let’s leave the EU and join the EEA – Norway and Switzerland are doing fine without EU membership!†The UK is nothing like Norway or Switzerland. Both have far, far smaller populations than the UK, accounting for their far higher GDPs per capita. Both also have to pay in to the EU budget proportionate to their economies. Norway currently pays about 340 million euros per annum. The only difference is, they get nothing back out because they are not part of the EU. What is the advantage of being in the EEA but not the EU? EEA members are still bound by rules permitting freedom of movement. The citizens of all 30 EEA Member States have the right to move freely within the entire EEA, to live, work, establish companies, invest, and acquire real estate (often referred to as the “four freedomsâ€). Article 4 of the EEA Agreement also prohibits any discrimination on grounds of nationality (principle of non-discrimination). I'm putting that in bold, because I think it's passed a lot of people by. Switzerland, although not part of the EEA, has its own agreement with Brussels on free movement.  Members of the EEA still must comply with the EU's many laws and regulations, because the EU is by far the largest player within the EEA. Both Norway and Switzerland  â€“ without having any say in their formulation – have to abide by 80-90% of EU rules and regulations in order to be part of the Common Market. Because what you need for a Common Market to function is common rules and regulations. The only real difference is that countries like Iceland, Norway and Switzerland get no say in the creation or modification of those rules and regulations.

 

Struggling to see why this would be a desirable arrangement.

[ragwert]

Triumphant PM returns home with 'cast iron guarantees' from Europe.

[megilleland]

Your cut and paste jobs from the newspapers are always appreciated, but this headline is lazy scaremongering. There is nothing disturbing about refugees to reveal in the article; it's a cynical attempt to link them to TTIP and the horrors that that contains.

 

"It has just been revealed that the UK was forced to pay €8 million to Eurotunnel for costs incurred preventing migrants entering the UK between 1999 and 2002"

 

Seems to me pretty clear that the burden of preventing illegal entry of migrants appeared to be a good reason for Eurotunnel to sue the UK within the rules of a secret tribunal where they know the rules and we don't.

 

Also the figures quoted are for just 3 years  - 15 years ago. So unless things at the tunnel have been tightened up that figure can only be at least 5 times as big at around €40,000,000 to date with more and more illegals waiting to take their chance.

 

Cut and pasting articles which catch my attention and may be of interest to others widens the debate, especially if you read the comments under these articles by other members of the public - a good cross section of opinions. As the referendum will decide whether we are in or are we out, I am sure a lot of people will not be reading the small print.

[Osmosis]

"It has just been revealed that the UK was forced to pay €8 million to Eurotunnel for costs incurred preventing migrants entering the UK between 1999 and 2002"

 

Seems to me pretty clear that the burden of preventing illegal entry of migrants appeared to be a good reason for Eurotunnel to sue the UK within the rules of a secret tribunal where they know the rules and we don't.

 

Also the figures quoted are for just 3 years  - 15 years ago. So unless things at the tunnel have been tightened up that figure can only be at least 5 times as big at around €40,000,000 to date with more and more illegals waiting to take their chance.

 

Cut and pasting articles which catch my attention and may be of interest to others widens the debate, especially if you read the comments under these articles by other members of the public - a good cross section of opinions. As the referendum will decide whether we are in or are we out, I am sure a lot of people will not be reading the small print.

Fine. I've made my views on TTIP and ISDS very clear. But this topic is about in or out of the EU - how will Brexit , if it happens, make any difference to the numbers trying to enter the UK illegally?

[greenknight]

Fine. I've made my views on TTIP and ISDS very clear. But this topic is about in or out of the EU - how will Brexit , if it happens, make any difference to the numbers trying to enter the UK illegally?

It will make very little difference in my opinion because if people are desperate they will take risks so bodies on our beaches...Very likely.

[Osmosis]

Osmosis, please don't think for a single moment that I have a poor opinion of the Polish migrants. I simply used them as an example. That said, if it helps you trying to figure out me, let me say this, I have an equally unwelcoming attitude to every single citizen of the EU that abandons their homeland for Western money. My view is its a betrayal of their nation and I know that I would never leave England for money. In short, this is my Country and I now no longer wish to share it with others who take and take and pretend to me and themselves that they're entitled to it all because they've slipped the exchequer a few quid in tax and national insurance payments.

As for the economic argument, and my proposition that the entire model the EU is following is a bag of rats, they are the thoughts and teachings of John Maynard Keynes and not something I've pulled out of the air. In short, he says, and I bloody believe him even though he's dead, if you become dependant upon a vast cheap labour force that'll work faster, harder and cheaper than anyone else they will make a wealthy few richer and the vast majority poorer because of the high subsidy levels required to fund the fun.

But worse, he says, and I believe him, when a disproportionate sum of money earned in one economy and recycled elsewhere, namely not earned and spent here, it's an economic recipe for disaster.

I repeat, all these impoverished Countries, particularly those from Central and East Asia are tied and bound to an economic model that halts their home country development because their kids chose to leave and seek a better life in the West. Whichever way you dress this, the EU is the biggest man made mistake since Germany decided they needed more living space.

Bobby, I'm not going to argue with you about economics. But people have been moving about the globe for thousands of years. I'm not interested in somebody's place of origin or ethnicity really. "Country of origin" can be an arbitrary concept. I was born in Scotland and grew up there; I abandoned my homeland for economic reasons. We can't all stay exactly where we were born. Free movement of people is what makes the world dynamic and interesting, in my view. 

[Cambo]

David Malone is a blogger I follow, and stood last year for the Green Party. I'm not a Green supporter myself, but Malone is a very good speaker and comes across very well.

Evening osmosis that David Malone is very good I think the people of Scarborough & Whitby missed a trick by not electing him as their MP.

 

If before watching mr Malone talk on TTIP I was undecided on which way to vote? My mind would no longer be undecided because after listening to mr Malone I'd be convinced that the only way out of it would be to vote to leave the EU before that agreement gets signed because we would be left with even less sovereignty,than we currently have in the EU,as it is but once it's signed…I reckon you can kiss that all goodbye maybe not in the sort term but certainly over a short space of time?!

 

Arbitration to me equals kangaroo court there is no other word for it 3 lawyers deciding the outcome of disputes between big corporation & government more than likely the lawyers would be corrupt & in the pay of the big corporations? As it seems from what mr Malone says the corps win 99% of the time So it would not surprise me if they was taking bribes??

 

Once it was the common market & that was ok because it was about trade but now it's morphed into Frankenstein's monster which is bad & it's going to get worse in my opinion!…so if you believe in the one world order? then by all means vote to stay in....but if you believe in some sort of freedom & democracy then you must without hesitation vote to leave the EU

 

I don't bye into the augment that we can't survive besides we are one of Germany's biggest traders?!

[greenknight]

Well I don't bloody care about the economics of it all. I simply don't want to host millions of people who are here for the money and the free public services and don't care or love my Country.

But, if it is simple and straightforward economics that'll make you place your cross in the box that says, 'Out', then consider this and particularly the Nations of the former Soviet Bloc and the impact the EU economics have upon them.

Take poor Poland for example. Stripped of millions of their young people who've abandoned their homeland and invested themselves and their talents in the economy of our Country, they've got the huge advantage of not having to pay and care for their former citizens but their society, both socially and economically have become stagnant. Indeed, so heavily dependant upon pound sterling sent home to be recycled in their economy to prop up their fragile and ailing progress to attain some sort of near parity with the West, they've become hostages to the fortunes of the EU.

They are no longer able to develop themselves and modernise because their future, their bloody youngsters, have tipped up here to aid our economic aspirations. How can Poland possibly extricate themselves from this madness, create a better Poland when they've no manufacturing output or economic activity that doesn't involve Britsh Pound Sterlng or Euros earned and generated beyond their borders.

Since 2004 near on twenty one million have left the East region of Central and East Europe,flown the nest, abandoned their nations to work faster, cheaper and harder than everyone else. You tell me. Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West? How on earth does it benefit these Nations if all their youngsters leave and invest themselves in a foreign Country?

To be fare Bobby it does kind of work both ways. Many a western power pursued commercial greed in the far east only to dump a country at a moment's notice leaving thousands without work, I saw this in Jakarta. As for our people's well we've been known to wander,whether that's retirement abroad with our state pension or perhaps that 50+ male hunting the club's in the Philippines or Thailand and not necessarily looking for assistance whilst undertaking a jungle field trip!

 

This topic like the other on this site stimulate passionate responses from each end of the political spectrum however there are many many individuals reading these posts that are pitched in the middle and remain silent.It will be these people that will ultimately decide and correct me if I am wrong but is it a little difficult to exist in a democracy when you have extreme views be it left or right?

 

I personally want to remain in a democracy but fear opinion voiced from the edges of the seesaw be it lefty or rightly is pushing us away from that we used to hold so dear.

[bobby47]

Sadly GK, economically speaking, it's not working both ways. I've said before, essentially the EU is made up of two troops. The Haves and the Have Nots and its this imbalance in the whole structure of the EU economic model that makes the whole thing dysfunctional

We in the West are the Haves. They, to the East and beyond the old Iron Curtain are the Have Nots. Now, the problem with the Haves is they don't want to be a part of the Have Not group, therefore, it's rare that a family wake up, howl hoorah and proclaim, 'let's move and live in Lavia and experience the joys of having no flushing toilet and embracing the leisure of having beggar all'. The Haves simply will not journey to the land of the Have Nots.

On the other hand, being a Have Not is an entirely different proposition. In the main, having beggar all isn't something you want or need to share and so, the notion of leaving the land of Have Not isn't unattractive. Indeed, with the chance of journeying to the West and immediately becoming a component part of the Haves is worth trading n the horse and cart, slaughtering the family goat and making your way to the promised land.

And so, given that we have the Have and Have Not groups within the EU it's not difficult to grasp in simple and straightforward economic terms that the Giving and the Taking from the two groups are heavily imbalanced. The Have Nots have to give and the Have Nots must do the taking. It's all very simple and straightforward. It's not a knotty economic conundrum that requires one to have a Degree in Economics.

The whole thing is a disaster and we must get out of this unholy social and political alliance that now sees the EU expanding and needing to hoover up Turkey, a land mass that's ninety seven percent Asia and three percent Europe. It's a bloody basket case!

[Osmosis]

Evening osmosis that David Malone is very good I think the people of Scarborough & Whitby missed a trick by not electing him as their MP.

 

If before watching mr Malone talk on TTIP I was undecided on which way to vote? My mind would no longer be undecided because after listening to mr Malone I'd be convinced that the only way out of it would be to vote to leave the EU before that agreement gets signed because we would be left with even less sovereignty,than we currently have in the EU,as it is but once it's signed…I reckon you can kiss that all goodbye maybe not in the sort term but certainly over a short space of time?!

 

Arbitration to me equals kangaroo court there is no other word for it 3 lawyers deciding the outcome of disputes between big corporation & government more than likely the lawyers would be corrupt & in the pay of the big corporations? As it seems from what mr Malone says the corps win 99% of the time So it would not surprise me if they was taking bribes??

 

Once it was the common market & that was ok because it was about trade but now it's morphed into Frankenstein's monster which is bad & it's going to get worse in my opinion!…so if you believe in the one world order? then by all means vote to stay in....but if you believe in some sort of freedom & democracy then you must without hesitation vote to leave the EU

 

I don't bye into the augment that we can't survive besides we are one of Germany's biggest traders?!

Evening Cambo. You must do what you think best when it comes to the referendum - at least you have taken the trouble to find out a bit more about the issues. I agree with you about David Malone - he would make a great leader for the Greens.

[greenknight]

It will make very little difference in my opinion because if people are desperate they will take risks so bodies on our beaches...Very likely.

Well sooner than expected...the BBC news reports today of an attempted dingy sailing of refugees bound for the UK.

[Cambo]

If the vote to remain in the EU is successful?…I see the UK's position within it,in 5 years to that which is on a par, with what happens to our entries into the Eurovision Song Contest…LAST!!!

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12142260/If-the-Brits-want-to-leave-let-them-leave-say-EU-leaders.html

[H.Wilson]

This is interesting.

 

[megilleland]

The Guardian 7th January 2016

EU proposals will force multinationals to disclose tax arrangements

 

The European commission is to table legislation in early April aimed at making the world’s largest multinational corporations open their tax arrangements with EU governments to full public scrutiny.

 

According to three senior EU officials familiar with the proposals, initial conclusions from an ongoing impact assessment have found in favour of obliging large corporations to reveal their profits and the tax they pay in every country in which they operate within the EU.

 

US multinationals such as Google, Facebook and Amazon will be forced to publicly disclose their earnings and tax bills in Europe, under legislation being drafted by the EU executive.

 

The European commission is to table legislation in early April aimed at making the world’s largest multinational corporations open their tax arrangements with EU governments to full public scrutiny.

 

According to three senior EU officials familiar with the proposals, initial conclusions from an ongoing impact assessment have found in favour of obliging large corporations to reveal their profits and the tax they pay in every country in which they operate within the EU.

 

The commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, is said to be in favour of the initiative. A consensus has formed around making the rules apply to the world’s biggest conglomerates, including those from the US, the officials said.

 

So if we came out of the EU we could become attractive to companies which would not want to open their tax affairs. Would these companies not be able to trade in the EU if they fail to pay their taxes? It's alright asking them to open their tax arrangements with EU governments for full public scrutiny, but what will be the penalties if they don't, especially as the US isn't a member of the EU.

[megilleland]

The Guardian 7th January 2016

EU proposals will force multinationals to disclose tax arrangements

 

The European commission is to table legislation in early April aimed at making the world’s largest multinational corporations open their tax arrangements with EU governments to full public scrutiny.

 

According to three senior EU officials familiar with the proposals, initial conclusions from an ongoing impact assessment have found in favour of obliging large corporations to reveal their profits and the tax they pay in every country in which they operate within the EU.

 

US multinationals such as Google, Facebook and Amazon will be forced to publicly disclose their earnings and tax bills in Europe, under legislation being drafted by the EU executive.

 

The European commission is to table legislation in early April aimed at making the world’s largest multinational corporations open their tax arrangements with EU governments to full public scrutiny.

 

According to three senior EU officials familiar with the proposals, initial conclusions from an ongoing impact assessment have found in favour of obliging large corporations to reveal their profits and the tax they pay in every country in which they operate within the EU.

 

The commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, is said to be in favour of the initiative. A consensus has formed around making the rules apply to the world’s biggest conglomerates, including those from the US, the officials said.

 

So if we came out of the EU we could become attractive to companies which would not want to open their tax affairs. Would these companies not be able to trade in the EU if they fail to pay their taxes? It's alright asking them to open their tax arrangements with EU governments for full public scrutiny, but what will be the penalties if they don't, especially as the US isn't a member of the EU.

[Roger]

EU referendum: Brexit will bring the 'Jungle' to southern England, David Cameron warns

 

If Britain leaves the EU, France will stop allowing UK officials to make checks in Calais, Prime Minister says

 

 

 

David Cameron is to warn that a Brexit would leave Britain vulnerable to terror attacks and that migrant camps will spring up across the South East of England.

 

The Prime Minister will make national security issues the centrepiece of his campaign to keep Britain in the European Union.

 

Under the 2003 Le Touquet treaty between the UK and France, Britain is allowed to conduct border controls at French rather than UK borders – meaning it checks for migrants stowing away on lorries or trains bound for Britain in Calais, not Dover.

 

However, Mr Cameron will warn that if Britain leaves the EU, France will stop allowing UK officials to make the checks.

 

 

 

Telegraph

 

Desperate scare tactics from Cameron in my opinion ...

[Mick]

Bobby I think your comments about a brain drain in Poland are pertinent, although I find your attitude towards migrant workers hard to take. If the UK decides to leave the EU, this will not affect Polish migration, they will still continue to work in Ireland and elsewhere. At the time Poland joined the EU in 2004, the country’s unemployment rate was 19%, and a youth unemployment rate of 40% made employment in the UK, even in low-skilled jobs, an attractive option for young Poles. A convoluted tax system in Poland makes starting a business and creating jobs extremely difficult. For the millions of Poles who emigrated over the last few years, there were no viable employment opportunities at home. But Poland's own economy is developing. It was the only EU country to avoid recession during the 2008-2009 financial crisis. Poland does not want to leave the EU despite this brain-drain - they are benefitting enormously from EU funding, which is as it should be given the disadvantages Poland endured economically after the war. Brexit will make no difference to Polish emigration or the Polish economy, other than to deprive it of funds which expat Poles send home. 

PS I employ a young Polish man, and know many others. He has been here for eight years. I have only ever found the Poles to be courteous and appreciative of everything they have here. They are not freeloaders. They are not the something-for-nothing types who spit on the cash dispensers and spend all day outside MacDonalds dropping rubbish and puking up outside nightclubs - how much civic pride and love for country do you think these natives exhibit?

PPS Your words "Where's the economic sense inlosing their best and brightest to the West?" remind me of Paul Nuttall and Stewart Lee's riff on his comments - worth watching if you haven't already seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ

 

I completely agree with you Osmosis, I have many Polish friends and they all work very hard. I am not sure about this illusion that all Poles living in the UK send buckets of money back to Poland comes from? Some will of course but in my experience most of the people I know have very little money left at the each of the month and what they do have left they use for trips back home during the holidays.

 

I am slightly offended by the term bobby47 uses "take poor Poland" I am sure he has seen to many old movies and has not visited this country at all.

[bobby47]

Dear Mick, I am aware of your Polish ancestry and Colin's partner being Polish and I would never do or say anything deliberately to hurt your feelings. That said Mick, this is not an apology because nothing I've said warrants any offence to be taken and if you read my piece again carefully you'll hopefully discover that the 'Poor Poland' remark was based on the EU policy of asset stripping a nations greatest wealth. Their young people.

I don't want you to be hurt Mick. Any argument I have is with the economic structure of the EU and not its component parts 'the people' who are required to move around, abandon their homeland and provide labour to the ever expanding policies of the EU. I've said many times, if I were born within the Have Not group of the EU I'd be here with my loved ones making the best of what life dished me out.

As for the growth in the Polish economy, it's not the result of an expanding manufacturing base or a rise in productivity. It's entirely down to a huge drop in resident population and EU investment in the Polish infrastructure and to argue that Poland is on 'the up' without understanding the economics that drive an economy is foolhardy and blinkered.

Poor Poland has, since 2004 seen millions upon millions of people leave their Country for a better life and money. I say that this is very wrong, it's a recipe for disaster and in the fullness of time there'll be an historical acknowledgement that 'the free movement of people' and an acceptance of rule dished out by an unelected elite from Brussels, will be seen as the greatest man made mistake since Germany and the Nazis decided that their peoples required more living space.

I do hope Mick that you are not hurt by my views and I offer up my very warmest regards to you and yours.