EU referendum - In or Out?

[Mick]

Dear Mick, I am aware of your Polish ancestry and Colin's partner being Polish and I would never do or say anything deliberately to hurt your feelings. That said Mick, this is not an apology because nothing I've said warrants any offence to be taken and if you read my piece again carefully you'll hopefully discover that the 'Poor Poland' remark was based on the EU policy of asset stripping a nations greatest wealth. Their young people.

I don't want you to be hurt Mick. Any argument I have is with the economic structure of the EU and not its component parts 'the people' who are required to move around, abandon their homeland and provide labour to the ever expanding policies of the EU. I've said many times, if I were born within the Have Not group of the EU I'd be here with my loved ones making the best of what life dished me out.

As for the growth in the Polish economy, it's not the result of an expanding manufacturing base or a rise in productivity. It's entirely down to a huge drop in resident population and EU investment in the Polish infrastructure and to argue that Poland is on 'the up' without understanding the economics that drive an economy is foolhardy and blinkered.

Poor Poland has, since 2004 seen millions upon millions of people leave their Country for a better life and money. I say that this is very wrong, it's a recipe for disaster and in the fullness of time there'll be an historical acknowledgement that 'the free movement of people' and an acceptance of rule dished out by an unelected elite from Brussels, will be seen as the greatest man made mistake since Germany and the Nazis decided that their peoples required more living space.

I do hope Mick that you are not hurt by my views and I offer up my very warmest regards to you and yours.

I am sure your comments were not set out to hurt anyone bobby and thank you for pointing that out. Can I ask you something, have you ever been to Poland? I am curious because I think you would be pretty impressed. I am of the opinion that a large percentage of people have this picture in their minds of a cold snow covered country dark and dismal with remnants of the former communists state. It is the exact opposite to this and if you were to take a trip I think you would be pleasantly surprised. The summer months are usually VERY hot (often hotter than here in the UK) last year temperatures reached of over 40c in come places yet winter can go as low as -25+ that said, this year has seen mild temperatures similar to us here.

I do not entirely agree with your view although I can see where you are coming from to a degree. 

[Gentle Giant]

 

Well I feel like I’m flogging a dead horse here, but as a recreational polemicist I’m quite enjoying the debate.

 

On the contrary, Osmosis: this equine is still very much alive and kicking and his opinions, although strongly held, are not beyond modification. That said, I have a feeling that were we to have this discussion face to face with a large bottle of something strong and expensive and two glasses in the equation, it might result in one helluva hangover.

 

Anyway, on to the Custard Pies at Ten Paces, with this little gem: Your description of how the Commission is constituted is close, but is it close enough? From the EU's own website comes:

A new team of 28 Commissioners (one from each EU Member State) is appointed every five years.

The candidate for President of the Commission is proposed to the European Parliament by the European Council that decides by qualified majority and taking into account the elections to the European Parliament.

The Commission President is then elected by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members (which corresponds to at least 376 out of 751 votes).

Following this election, the President-elect selects the 27 other members of the Commission, on the basis of the suggestions made by Member States. The final list of Commissioners-designate has then to be agreed between the President-elect and the Council. The Commission as a whole needs the Parliament's consent. Prior to this, Commissioners-designate are assessed by the European Parliament committees.

 

When we elect our lot in the UK, we choose a local MP and, by default, get the bloke his party chose as leader to be PM, in a sort of BOGOF arrangement. Not perfect, but at least we are not electing a bloke who only has a bit of a say in choosing the bloke who is chosen by a bunch of other blokes who may have been chosen by us and who will then choose his own blokes who will be half-heartedly vetted by a committee of some of the blokes we chose in the first place until they agree to appoint the blokes who were chosen by the bloke who was elected by some of the people who might have been chosen by the people we voted for . . . I think.

 

You think British democracy isn't up to much? I agree that an elected second chamber would be preferable to the HoL, even though the latter has proven itself surprisingly useful on occasion. Of course, we have no say in choosing heads of major government departments, but we have no say in choosing the heads of EU departments either. The UK is, however, making a huge step towards a greater degree of democracy by bringing in elected mayors for major cities. Let's hope that trend works its way down to smaller local authorities.

 

Potentially another discussion altogether is our electoral system. I believe true PR is the way to go, but Brits loathe change, so let's not push our luck on that just yet.

 

I don't recall ever using the Norway and Iceland arguments, because I don't believe them to be relevant. Both are much smaller economies and any comparison is, therefore, less than valid. Switzerland is another ball game, due to its banking sector. It may be a small country with a small population but, as Bankers by Appointment to Warmongers of the World, it handles a whole stack of money, which bears some comparison to the financial services sector of the UK.

 

When it comes to negotiating our own trade arrangements with the EU (until it collapses, anyway) the UK is essential to the EU as an export market, being the second largest economy in Europe and, as such, is in a much more powerful negotiating position than any of the countries so fondly quoted by most exiteers.

 

The EU wants TTIP and, with corporations in control, the modern equivalent of serfdom is inevitable – refined over the mediaeval model, I grant you, but not by much. The CAP will continue to keep prices artificially inflated and will continue to mess up the ecology of Europe in the name of something or other, but not in the best interests of the people of the EU.

 

Osmosis, I fully understand how, with your view of the EU and its systems, you feel continued membership to be the way to go. That's the wonderful things about our system: you still have the democratic right to be wrong! ;-)

 

I grant you that, in principle, the EU was and possibly still could be, a decent idea. Unfortunately, it has to be run and operated by people, which is where the whole thing falls foul of the human instinct for self preservation and gain. It is all rather like trying to maintain a crumbling stately home. Once upon a time, it was mighty and grand and served a great practical purpose, building, growing and sustaining entire communities. Then it became tatty about the edges, then began to crumble. Sooner or later it will catch fire and be reduced to a shell, a shadow of its former self. Eventually, one day, the bulldozers will come . . .

[lpusseycat]

There are people around like myself that know what it was like before we entered the common market as the EU was known then. We would be better off out they need us more than we need them i am sick to death being dictated to by an unelected parliment they are only there to serve the controlling machinations .World bank European bank I.M.F . wake up people we live on a Island and cannot support more immigrants we do not have the infrastructure. Imagine another 5.000 immigrants in this city in the next month that is equal to 10% of the current population of this city let us assume 50% drive well belmont would be gridlocked so would edgar street you look at the real picture do not be moved by the lies you get from watching the BBC it is Reuters that supply the news to them. wake upppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

[Roger]

David Cameron fighting for EU deal after new eastern European revolt

 

Any more than a watered-down four-year “emergency brake†on benefits is looking fragile after the Visegrad grouping is refusing to agree any more concessions

 

 

 

 

David Cameron is fighting to retain meaningful concessions on the welfare portion of his EU renegotiation deal after a fresh resistance by eastern European states, the Telegraph has learned.

 

Eastern European countries, led by Poland and Hungary, are dragging their feet over agreeing to any more than a watered-down four-year “emergency brake†on benefits that will only fully withhold in-work benefits for EU migrants for just one year.

 

The tough line by the so-called Visegrad grouping – Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic – now sets the scene for a bruising showdown among EU leaders when they meet at next Thursday’s crucial summit in Brussel where the prime minister hopes to seal his new deal for Britain.

 

 

 

Telegraph

[Cambo]

Obama what's us to stay in the EU?…that should be warning enough for us all to vote to leave the EU!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/12/barack-obama-plans-eu-referendum-intervention

[megilleland]

Came across this reader's comment on Brexit in The Guardian today - made me chuckle.

 

German poll finds one in three firms would leave UK after Brexit

 

Bertelsmann Foundation’s survey of 700 British and German firms finds 29% would cut capacity or relocate with 80% firmly behind UK staying in the EU

Sachaflashman

 

Dear Bertelsmann Foundation ,

I appreciate your advice and wonder if you could help me with my marital problems.

 

I really need your advice about my husband but would rather not give his full name, so let's just call him EU for short.

 

My husband was nice when we first got married but has turned into a bully, he ignores my wishes and is no longer capable of reforming himself. Things have got even worse since his company got taken over by a very dominant German woman.

 

EU takes lots of my hard-earned money and I am supposed to be grateful when I get a little of it back...even though he tells me what to spend it on!

 

He rarely buys me anything but is very generous with my cash. Last week he paid for a patio for that nice Polish couple at number 7, and last year he used my money to finance an airstrip for friends in Spain, though they don't even own a plane!

 

He's got it into his head that he wants to be a “big player†and is even planning his own army! Do you think I should call the local constabulary?

 

E.U. told me last night (after supper) that its important to him that he "maintains the global security architecture"....but I don't even know what this means. Is it some kind of kinky sex game?

 

He has started bringing in lots of people into our house and it's getting very cramped but he doesn't care. He insists that there's still enough room for lots of his Turkish, Albanian and Bosnian friends. He reckons they'll be joining him as soon as the “political climate is conduciveâ€...whatever that means.

 

I went to see a lawyer recently but apparently there is nothing I can do. EU got himself a fancy solicitor in Lisbon several years ago. I don't even remember him leaving for a trip to Portugal, nor giving him my consent....typical EU! I could murder him sometimes...he only thinks of himself!

 

Now he says that jobs will be lost if I insist on demanding my sovereign rights as a wife and mother. What am I to do?

 

I can't bring myself to leave him though, because....

 

I'm absolutely terrified of standing on my own two feet."

 

Please help.

 

Thank you in advance, Sacha.

 

 

[megilleland]

UKIP Busting the EU Myths

 

Published Feb 11, 2016

 

UKIP MEP Roger Helmer writes: If you’re undecided on the Brexit question, I hope this will help you to make up your mind. And if (as I hope) you’re campaigning for Brexit, this may help with some of the most frequently-asked questions.

 

“If we leave, there’ll be 3½ million jobs at riskâ€. Not true. The jobs depend on trade, not membership, and the trade will continue. We buy far more from the EU than they buy from us – so if 3½ million UK jobs depend on EU/UK trade, it follows that five or six million continental jobs depend on it too. They need us. We should be worrying about the jobs we’re losing now, as a result of EU membership. Ask the steel workers, who lost their jobs because of the EU’s energy policies, and failure to counter Chinese dumping.

 

“We need to be in the Single Market for tradeâ€. Not true. The largest sources of imports into the EU are Russia, China and the USA. They’re not members of the Single Market – they don’t even have preferential trade deals. Yet they sell huge quantities of goods into the Single Market. Dozens of countries around the world trade successfully with Europe – and so will Britain after Brexit.

 

“Even if we leave, we’ll still be subject to EU rulesâ€. Not true. Pro-EU campaigners constantly talk about “the Norwegian modelâ€. But Norway is a quasi-associate-member of the EU. After Brexit, the UK will be an independent nation, like Canada or the USA or China or South Korea. They don’t obey EU rules. Nor will we.

 

“We need the EU because the UK is too small to negotiate trade deals aloneâ€. Not true. Little Switzerland and tiny Iceland have managed to set up their own trade deals with China – but neither UK nor EU has a China trade deal. The USA has bilateral trade deals with 20 countries, and every one of those countries has a smaller economy than the UK. As a G7 country, the UK is well able to make its own trade deals.

 

“The EU is vital for our securityâ€. Not true. The EU is the problem, not the solution. EU open borders have allowed terrorists and eastern European crime syndicates free access to our country. “Free movement of people†appears to include free movement of jihadists and Kalashnikovs. Security starts with proper border control.

 

“We’ll lose the benefit of police cooperation in Europolâ€. But the EU already extends police cooperation to 18 non-member countries. It is inconceivable that that would not extend to UK. And of course we still have Interpol.

 

“Even after Brexit, we won’t be able to control immigrationâ€. Yes we will – as an island nation, we can control our borders. But if we stay in, we can expect Germany to give EU passports to a million migrants, who can come and live on a street near you. The EU is keen to admit Turkey, which would be the biggest and poorest EU state, allowing 75 million Turks the right to come to the UK.

 

“Business leaders say we should stay inâ€. Many do – but many say the opposite. And many who say they want to stay in, like the big banks, are subject to EU commission influence and patronage.

 

"Farmers won’t survive without their regular CAP cheques." Farmers will be Better Off Out. Virtually all countries have their own farm support régimes. The UK had a perfectly good farm support policy before we joined the EU in 1973. After Brexit, we’ll have a farm support mechanism designed in Britain for British farmers, not one designed in Brussels for French farmers. And we currently pay around £6 bn a year into the CAP, and get only £3 bn back -- so there’ll be plenty of funding available.

 

"With all its faults, hasn’t the EU at least kept the peace in Europe for seventy years?" No. The peace has been kept by NATO, by thousands of US troops in Germany, by nuclear deterrence and mutually assured destruction. In the immediate post-war years the proto-EU, with the Coal & Steel Community, helped to ensure peace, but as William Hague has said, “The EU is a 1970s solution to a 1950s problemâ€.

 

 

[Denise Lloyd]

Ministers delay funding application

 

 

 

Despite time running out, ministers have yet to claim hundreds of millions of pounds in EU compensation for December’s floods.

That’s according to reports in the Financial Times, which said the situation was the result of confusion over which government department should submit the claim.

According to EU rules, claims must be submitted within 12 weeks of the first incident. Storm Desmond – which resulted in widespread flooding in Cumbria, Northern England and Southern Scotland – happened on Saturday, December 5.

It was then followed by a number of other storms, which resulted in repeated flooding.

Paul Cobbing, chief executive of the National Flood Forum, told the newspaper the floods had had a very severe impact on people, communities, businesses and infrastructure. He added the EU fund was available for ‘just this sort of situation’.

“This is placing very considerable burdens on many local authorities and service providers that go well beyond the remit of the domestic financial compensation schemes the government has put in place,†he continued.

The Financial Times stated it had been told by the environment department it was the responsibility of the Treasury to apply for the funding, but later said it was the responsibility of the communities department. The department told the newspaper the government had not ruled out applying for the funds.

“We are assessing the case for an application and will make a decision shortly,†it said.

It added that the government had already provided £200m to fund recovery and repair efforts.

 

Source - NFU

[bobby47]

Hello Mick, I'm so sorry, I've only just read your question. Yes I have. I've travelled all over that region and I know that your Mother Country is a very beautiful place. You've got mountains that Scotland would be proud of and more land locked fresh water lakes than most of Europe combined. Mind, you've got few fish in them because they've been eaten.

You've every reason to be proud of your heritage Mick. Despite its tragic modern history, the Polish are a remarkable people and their fighting qualities place Poland alongside Great Britain in being prepared to fight for what's right.

That said Mick, I've no idea why the Polish people are so content to be ruled by the will of the mighty German economy. Our German European cousins are great people. I like the Germans. The problem is, somewhere within their national psyche they have to organise. They simply cannot stop themselves. No matter the social or economic situations that all nations face, the Germans slide toward organising, controlling and orchestrating. They do it every single time. They can't help themselves and they continue to do it today. Worse, they won't stop. They can't. They must have order and they've no understanding of good healthy disorder that is at the core of being British who do not want to be ruled.

They've single handedly destroyed the cradle of democracy Greece, they've appointed themselves as the leaders of Europe and they've imposed themselves and their vision of closer economic and social Union upon every single nation upon mainland Europe to the point where the weak economies are dancing to the tune of the German dream. One single currency, one foreign policy, one ruling legislative and no national pride other than 'we are all Europeans'.

The EU is an expansionistic Empire that's morphed somewhere between Communism and Global Capitalism and it'll bring every single one of us national misery. I repeat again, any economic model that encourages millions upon millions of people to abandon their homeland for money is unhealthy and deeply flawed and it's very being should be avoided at all costs.

My warmest regards Mick.

[Roger]

David Cameron 'has one chance to strike deal' as he heads into crucial EU summit

 

David Cameron embarked on the biggest gamble of his premiership on Thursday evening, as he sought to put Britain’s place in Europe on a permanently new footing at an EU summit in Brussels

 

If he failed to strike an agreement at the meeting of 28 heads of government that was expected to run through the night, he would not be given a second chance, EU leaders warned Britain

 

 

Guardian

[megilleland]

Looks like he is going to implode at any moment. Are you going to tell me all 28 member countries are going to go along with him. Its bad enough to get the family to agree what we are going to do today!

[Roger]

Greek PM Alexis Tsipras threatens to veto David Cameron's entire deal over migrant crisis

 

Greece could veto David Cameron's entire deal unless Britain commits to keeping to Greek northern border open, the country's prime minister Alexis Tsipras has warned.

 

 

Telegraph

[ragwert]

National treasures Ant and Dec are to be given to the EU as part of a deal which will see David Cameron secure key concessions on welfare payments to immigrants. The move comes after Polish delegates stormed out of negotiations after the Prime Minister’s opening offer of the Chuckle Brothers and Bonnie Langford appeared to have backfired.

‘We don’t want your stinking Chuckle Brothers,’ said chief Polish negotiator Karol Bosko. ‘Cameron thinks we are a bunch of backward peasants, wetting our pants with laughter at the stupid antics of a couple of demented buffoons. We want the consummate entertainers Ant and Dec with their cheeky Geordie charm and touching man-love’.

The offer of Ant and Dec also appears to have secured the backing of the Czech Republic and Slovakia where re-runs of kids programme Byker Grove still regularly attract over 20 million viewers and the duo’s birthdays are celebrated as national holidays.

The deal follows earlier reports that the Prime Minister was humiliated by other EU leaders and forced to dance while delegates threw the remnants of their buffet lunch at him.

‘It was a degrading spectacle,’ admits German delegate Willy Ackerman. ‘On the other hand if he wants this deal as much as he says he does then he should be prepared to dress up in lederhosen and dance to the Birdie Song while I throw roast beef and caramelised onion vol au vents at him. He didn’t look happy, maybe he would have preferred the pork’.

[Roger]

[Roger]

 

Deal is done. 

[Roger]

2010 alert!

 

 

David Cameron: net immigration will be capped at tens of thousands

 

Immigration levels would be capped every year and be limited to “tens of thousands†more than the numbers departing to live abroad, under a Conservative government, David Cameron has said.

 

 

An annual cap on new arrivals would be announced, with a figure based on the number of people who left Britain to move overseas.

 

Overall, net immigration would be kept in the “tens of thousands,†rather than the current rate of “hundreds of thousandsâ€.

 

 

 

Telegraph

 

By the way ... Telegraph has a small filter/cap for viewing .... Just set the browser to 'incognito' if you have reached your limit ..... 

[megilleland]

 

Deal is done. 

 

No we have been done in a deal.

[Ubique]

Having read a few of the Saturday papers my mind has not changed - I will vote OUT in June .

[Colin James]

I think the PM has done as much as he can in fairness. 

[Roger]

I think the PM has done as much as he can in fairness. 

 

Which is not a lot. Promised certain things in the manifesto and did not deliver.

 

[Ubique]

On the BBC news website there is a list of Cabinet Minsters and Conservative MPs who have declared where they stand on the forthcoming vote , of interest Bill Wiggins is going to campaign to leave the EU . Interesting few months ahead I think !

[Roger]

On the BBC news website there is a list of Cabinet Minsters and Conservative MPs who have declared where they stand on the forthcoming vote , of interest Bill Wiggins is going to campaign to leave the EU . Interesting few months ahead I think !

 

Jesse Norman MP is a name missing off either list. His last tweet was a retweet of an article that describes Michael Gove as an asset .... So make of that what you will ....

 

Twitter

[bobby47]

For those that can be persuaded to Vote Out, consider this. At this time we are hosting nearly three million economically active EU migrants who are accompanied by over a million non economically active family members. Many say, it could be as high as two million. Whatever the true figure is, there is now a political acknowledgement that our much cherished and hard won public services are being squeezed and placed under considerable and unsustainable strain.

How many more million will it take for you to change your minds and Vote Out? Be under no misguided illusions, the EU have Serbia, Albania and Macedonia in their sights but the one that will be next to join will be Turkey. The admission of Turkey is inevitable. It's unavoidable if the EU wants to stop the exodus of people from the Middle East. Turkey with its seventy five million people will join the EU. Now, bearing in mind that Turkey and its people are much poorer than the migrants that we've received thus far, it's fair to say its inevitable that Britain will be a choice destination for the millions of Turks who'll leave their homeland for money and expect to be given all the great things that Britain has to offer.

How many millions will we be required to host in the future and at what cost to our way of life, our freedoms and our public services.

It's simply no good saying, we fought on your side during World War Two just as it's pointless saying that without EU citizens the work won't get done. Voting to Leave is a simply and straightforward act of selfishness. Do we in Britain want to hang onto what we have and maintain some semblance of order or do we throw it all away to people who are here for the money. And this future I speak of isn't far away. Before the end of the next decade Turkey will be in the EU. Events will see to that. It's all about seismic political events and the Meditteranean migrants are one such event that'll change our lives forever. Turkey and its seventy five million people will at some stage in the near future be given what they want, a chance to join the Have group and get a better life.

You ain't going to get another chance to leave and extricate yourselves from the EU. Truthfully, it might already be to late. If we Vote Out, and I believe we will, they will cling onto us, they will try to make us vote again until they get the answer that they want and just like Southern Ireland we may find ourselves fighting for a simple democratic right of having a voice at the electoral box.

Please consider Voting Out and have a little faith in your unique heritage that makes us the most creative and influential nation on Earth.

[Roger]

Boris Johnson exclusive: There is only one way to get the change we want – vote to leave the EU

 

David Cameron has done his very best, but a vote to Remain will be taken in Brussels as a green light for the further erosion of democracy

 

 

I am a European. I lived many years in Brussels. I rather love the old place. And so I resent the way we continually confuse Europe – the home of the greatest and richest culture in the world, to which Britain is and will be an eternal contributor – with the political project of the European Union. It is, therefore, vital to stress that there is nothing necessarily anti-European or xenophobic in wanting to vote Leave on June 23.

 

And it is important to remember: it isn’t we in this country who have changed. It is the European Union. In the 28 years since I first started writing for this paper about the Common Market – as it was then still known – the project has morphed and grown in such a way as to be unrecognisable, rather as the vast new Euro palaces of glass and steel now lour over the little cobbled streets in the heart of the Belgian capital.

 

 

Telegraph

 

The link has the full article ....

[Denise Lloyd]

If as has been suggested that Wiggin has declared he is an out man and he is an alledged farmer's friend how can he declare his preference when he will be going into the great unknown?

 

Farmers Weekly â€@FarmersWeekly  4 mins4 minutes ago

Farm leaders demand answers to 'great unknowns' of a Brexit http://bit.ly/1QvWydD  #EUReferendum #Brexit #inorout

[Ubique]

I read opinions on the EU every day and I can't decide which way would be better for our economy. Honestly, I don't think anyone knows - both sides hold genuine beliefs that directly conflict each other. What I will say is that the ill informed and variably educated electorate is allowed to choose our government every five years so I don't see why we should treat this any differently. Believe for a lot of us it's a gut feeling as to which way to vote.

[Colin James]

Boris Johnson exclusive: There is only one way to get the change we want – vote to leave the EU

 

David Cameron has done his very best, but a vote to Remain will be taken in Brussels as a green light for the further erosion of democracy

 

 

 

Telegraph

 

The link has the full article ....

 

 

 

I agree with David Cameron, voting out in order to stay in is not clever. I am not convinced that this tactic will force a second referendum.

[Colin James]

This is an interesting article:

 

OK, so about this referendum thing. You know, to Brexit. Or Not.

We’re about to be inundated with a lot of pointless noise. If the pre-whining is anything to go by, most of it will be wrong. I have no intention of engaging with any of it, not least because referendums solve nothing and ill-informed referendums driven by hidden agendas solve even less.

In my mind, there are three different but related issues. Each of varying importance.

First, we have the re-negotiations that just finished in Brussels. I don’t know what game Cameron was playing with this but nothing in there has any material impact on anything that actually matters.  Other than, perhaps, the line in the sand on further political integration and this could have been negotiated any time. It was a side-show.

Second we have the long term economic and geo-political stability of the UK. You might, as a right thinking person, think that this should come first. But it doesn’t. In fact, it hardly features. Mostly because, as I’ll explain here, it’s a bit of a no brainer.

And the third issue? Well, what exactly is the motivation not to be part of a modern Europe? It feels like a naïve and shortsighted hark back to the glory days of Empire, with a worryingly modern dose of isolationist xenophobia. It’s regressive. Hardly a platform for the future.

Frankly (as you might have gathered), I’d like the whole thing to just go away. It’s a pointless debate detracting us from things that really matter (like reforming the EU for the modern age or tax avoiding global corporations).

And too many people seem to be confused, and that’s bad for democracy, though hardly surprising with the tabloid media on the job. So here are my simple answers to the questions I keep being asked and to correct the mis-information I keep reading. They’re offered merely in the hope of shining a little light into the darkened cesspool that this debacle will undoubtedly become.

1. We’ll have control over our own laws. No. We won’t, we will still need to harmonise with Europe. The only difference between now and then is that at the moment we get to influence those laws. If we leave we just have to adopt them (See Norway).
2. British courts can make the final decision. More complex this one but, in short, no. They can’t. At least not any more than now. The European Court of Human Rights (the Daily Mule’s biggest enemy) has nothing to do with the EU. The European Court of Justice is the final arbiter of EU law (not national law)… see point 1.
3. We can control our own borders. Er… We already do. You remember that passport thing you have to show the man?
4. We can control immigration. In theory, yes, we could. We could pull up the drawbridge and fill in the tunnel too. But it won’t happen because we lose more than we gain.
5. Staying in makes terrorism more likely. One of the more facile claims, this is so brilliantly stupid that it is almost genius. Staying in the EU makes us a hotbed for terrorism whilst leaving means we’re all safe. There you have it! The only problem is, it’s not true. First of all, see point 4 above. Then consider that terrorists are just like multi-nationals – they don’t respect national borders, they don’t play fair and they don’t care about you.
6. We’ll renegotiate free trade deals to replace the EU. We won’t. Certainly not quickly at least. We’ll trade with the EU as a member of the EEA so we get pretty much the same as now but we lose the power to influence any future changes. Again, see Norway. And the US has already made it clear it has no interest in a FTA with a newly isolated and rapidly sinking UK. But if you believe we can do instant deals why don’t you start with Scotland. As it will undoubtedly leave if the UK leaves the EU. As eventually will Northern Ireland. And then Wales… starting to feel like the ugly kid at the school disco yet?
7. We’ll be strutting our stuff as world power again. Newsflash! The UK is a world power. It has a seat on the UN Security Council. It punches enormously above it’s weight on the international stage. This is in part because of it’s connectedness to Europe and it’s power within the EU. Leave and what are you left with? There is momentum building to review the UNSC membership, what do you think are the odds that an isolated UK will still be there?
8. The economy will thrive if we’re outside the EU. Seriously? It’s not even worth bothering trying to answer this one! The statement is just so blatantly devoid of logic. We’re not Norway. we sold off most of the family silver years ago. And what’s left is rapidly being outsourced and sold off too. And that great shining generator of wealth (for a small few), the financial sector? That will move to Frankfurt, did you ever see a bank with loyalty? (OK, I accept that this could be seen as a plus). In short, if we leave, we get to live through a fire sale at the sunset of a once great economic and political power.
9. The EU is incompetent, badly run and a drain on resources. Yes. It is. It is beyond incompetent in many cases. But we’re stuck with it one way or the other – leaving does not change that. It might be hard to change it but at least it’s possible from the inside (now more than ever). What can we do from outside? It’s also worth pondering that many of the problems with supposed-EU dictates lie in the local implementation (remember, it was the UK’s fault it didn’t impose the moratorium in immigration in 2004, as Germany and others did).
10. What’s it ever done for us anyway? Nothing much. Other than working time directives and other ways that protect your rights at work, protect your children. Then there’s consumer protection and European peace. Not to mention the wholesale transition of Eastern Europe from volatile authoritarian states into thriving democracies. Maybe you don’t care about any of those things. But you should.

In short, the idea of leaving the EU is somewhere between bat-**** crazy and economic suicide.

Perhaps the most depressing thing is that this referendum, and an entire country’s future, is at risk of being decided through ignorance. Ignorance led by mis-information and a false sense of identity that fails to grasp that this is 2016, not 1816. We’re being fed a diet of half-truths and outright lies based on short-termism when the real issues are not just complex but fundamental to our economic and geopolitical future.

 

[Roger]

I walked past the car wash today. The queue was out of the door ..... The workers were like bees. There must be some sort of gangmaster raking in some sort of profit. Where do the car washers' sleep at night? 

[Harry Beynon]

At the moment 500 million people have the right to move to Britain. Soon, another 75 million Muslims (Turkey) will join them!

I'm a LEAVE!