Roger Posted May 19, 2014 Report Posted May 19, 2014 Roger When people change their views it can be a number of reasons ; New information Softening of attitudes Change in culture Lack of a problem anymore And more reasons that I can't currently think of When I change my mind on an issue it's normally to do with new information - doesn't mean that I am stupid or was stupid I suppose the argument is all a bit academic at the moment ~ until some sort of application is made to serve hot food past the 01.30 hrs cut off and we can see some sort of comment as to why it was either granted or refused. However there doesn't appear to be anything on the Council website for that type of application. Just the coffee cart one that caught my eye. And the one for Bar Spirit. I doubt that the venue will attract a more sophisticated, older, clientele if they got to drink out of plastic cups ... "We believe that granting this application, and the policing resources that would be required to deal with the additional demand, would have been to the detriment of the service provided to other parts of the county and this is the simple reason we opposed it." That is the key phrase for the McDonalds refusal last time. It suggests that there would be additional demand that would require Police Resources in some capacity. And it suggests that this would lead to reduced cover elsewhere. I don't think that the late night economy has drastically changed over the last couple of years so there would probably be a similar additional demand. And unless a few more spare boxes of cops have been found unused recently then there probably isn't this pool of people available to look after the food outlets without impacting on other areas. I don't think 'softening of attitudes' could have any bearing on the quoted statement. I was just suggesting that to potentially withdraw that type of objection in the future would make it look pretty stupid for being used last time.
George Armstrong Posted May 19, 2014 Report Posted May 19, 2014 Roger, We used to treat people with respiratory problems with Craven A cigarettes and shoot people with a shell shock 100 years ago. We can change our minds - it's ok. What looks pretty silly is continuing with the same remedial action when the game has changed irrevocably - else we'd still be burning witches in Hereford #justsaying
Biomech Posted May 19, 2014 Report Posted May 19, 2014 Do you see where I am coming from in that if McDs gets to stay open till 3/4am, a majority of the customers that use the local stores will go to the national chain, sutting down the local business operators. I don't think that would be an issue, in my experience people want a good sized burger, real chips or a kebab. Don't get me wrong I like McDonalds, but I think we've been there once on a night out in the last 20 years, that was on the way TO the pub just to get some quick food in. It's almost like arguing that McDonalds open in the daytime is making small business close in town, which we know isn't true. Plus McDonalds is far enough away from the clubs to make it "an effort" - I imagine Subway have seen smaller number since their move. The chip shop by Yates has a prime location, it's by the pubs, next to the taxi rank and on the way up into town/Play/Jailhouse/home/more taxis As for Charcoal Grill, that's worth the walk.
Roger Posted May 19, 2014 Report Posted May 19, 2014 Roger, We used to treat people with respiratory problems with Craven A cigarettes and shoot people with a shell shock 100 years ago. We can change our minds - it's ok. What looks pretty silly is continuing with the same remedial action when the game has changed irrevocably - else we'd still be burning witches in Hereford #justsaying How has the game changed? Everything still closes at 1.30 AM ... ? I don't think that would be an issue, in my experience people want a good sized burger, real chips or a kebab. Don't get me wrong I like McDonalds, but I think we've been there once on a night out in the last 20 years, that was on the way TO the pub just to get some quick food in. It's almost like arguing that McDonalds open in the daytime is making small business close in town, which we know isn't true. Plus McDonalds is far enough away from the clubs to make it "an effort" - I imagine Subway have seen smaller number since their move. The chip shop by Yates has a prime location, it's by the pubs, next to the taxi rank and on the way up into town/Play/Jailhouse/home/more taxis As for Charcoal Grill, that's worth the walk. Wife was moaning tonight that we need a decent Specialist Food Shop in town ... This was whilst she was watching this She said she wanted a shop and not some pop up tent!
stupidfrustration Posted May 21, 2014 Report Posted May 21, 2014 How has the game changed? People appear to be going out later and later. I remember not too long ago when there was a queue outside Yates at 10pm at night, now sadly for my favourite bar this queue, if there is one is not till around 11pm. On a Friday night - there used to be a hell of a lot more people out, Dusk at the time was busy, as was Play, as was Saxtys, but now, only Play is busy. The night time in Hereford has changed a lot. BIO - with regards to what people want to eat - I would love to have a quality burger, something like the Beefy boys burgers that the Jail house guys cook, but that is not what the average 18/30 year old wants or will pay for, or to be fair what is on offer from our late night food establishments. Just look at other towns/cities - yes they are much much bigger but McDonolds ALWAYS gets the lions share of trade in the late night. Thats fine if there is plenty of people around, when there are not, the "left overs" for the small local business may not be enough to keep them open.
Roger Posted May 21, 2014 Report Posted May 21, 2014 How has the game changed? People appear to be going out later and later. I remember not too long ago when there was a queue outside Yates at 10pm at night, now sadly for my favourite bar this queue, if there is one is not till around 11pm. On a Friday night - there used to be a hell of a lot more people out, Dusk at the time was busy, as was Play, as was Saxtys, but now, only Play is busy. The night time in Hereford has changed a lot. BIO - with regards to what people want to eat - I would love to have a quality burger, something like the Beefy boys burgers that the Jail house guys cook, but that is not what the average 18/30 year old wants or will pay for, or to be fair what is on offer from our late night food establishments. Just look at other towns/cities - yes they are much much bigger but McDonolds ALWAYS gets the lions share of trade in the late night. Thats fine if there is plenty of people around, when there are not, the "left overs" for the small local business may not be enough to keep them open. I think you tried to cover all bases there with that post ... I don't think anyone is remotely arsed whether a 3AM or 4AM finish is viable for X Y or Z ... The market will shake itself out once the Council relax a bit ...
Biomech Posted May 23, 2014 Report Posted May 23, 2014 but that is not what the average 18/30 year old wants or will pay for, I completely disagree or to be fair what is on offer from our late night food establishments. Which is the point is it not? That such food places aren't allowed to open
Roger Posted June 22, 2014 Report Posted June 22, 2014 My son bought a simple bag of chips from Mr. Chips at 10 pm last Sunday. Got them home and I tasted one and I can safely say they were the worst chips I've ever had in my life. I couldn't even swallow it as it was raw. Not even partially cooked. The outer surface was hot but that was it! The whole bag got lobbed into the bin. Plus my son says he caught sight of someone out the back who looked like they needed a good wash.
Aylestone Voice Posted July 22, 2014 Report Posted July 22, 2014 There is an item on the Council's Regulatory Committee - 30 July Someone wants to open a take way in 60 Commercial Road until 1.30am. I know you want later but this if agreed would help the case Start writing I would put a link but it does not allow me to copy and paste it (or I'm too dim!)
megilleland Posted July 22, 2014 Report Posted July 22, 2014 Regulatory Sub Committee Wednesday 30 July 2014 10.00 am item 5 Application for grant of a premises licence in respect of SFS Off Licence Shop, 60 Commercial Road, Hereford, HR1 2BP - Licensing Act 2003 To consider an application for the grant of a premises licence in respect of SFS Off Licence Shop, 60 Commercial Road, Hereford, HR1 2BP. Additional documents: Appendix A - Application Form Appendix B - Current Licence Appendix C - Police Representation Appendix D - Local Authority Representation Appendix E - Correspondence between Applicant and Police Appendix D: The application requests the licencing of a fast food premises after 11 pm at night. The Licensing Authority must object to the grant of the licence. The premises is within the heart of the area covered by Herefordshire Councils’ Special Policy under the Licensing Act 2003 (the Cumulative Impact Area). This policy is in place due to the saturation of licensed premises which includes takeaways. This area has been identified by the police as being under stress in relation to crime and disorder. Looks like they want to hit this on the head before it sets a precedent.
Colin James Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Posted July 22, 2014 Regulatory Sub Committee Wednesday 30 July 2014 10.00 am item 5 Application for grant of a premises licence in respect of SFS Off Licence Shop, 60 Commercial Road, Hereford, HR1 2BP - Licensing Act 2003 To consider an application for the grant of a premises licence in respect of SFS Off Licence Shop, 60 Commercial Road, Hereford, HR1 2BP. Additional documents: Appendix A - Application Form Appendix B - Current Licence Appendix C - Police Representation Appendix D - Local Authority Representation Appendix E - Correspondence between Applicant and Police Looks like they want to hit this on the head before it sets a precedent. Yep and that's why Hereford nightlife is poor because or stupid rules like this and this place only wants to open until 1.30am, imagine if they wanted even later! What a joke this town really is
Aylestone Voice Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Colin - It is just that they have a policy and want to stick to it. The way to change it is to lobby. You can e-mail the members of the Committee and/or the Licensing Officer
Cambo Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 It's hardly crime Central is it & besides if more take aways were open later, then you wouldn't have a big crowd thronging around outside one sandwich shop? Slightly off topic but kind of related I still think they should allow more bars etc to open in high town easier to police plus you don't have a big main road running right through the middle of Herefords entertainment area (if you can call it that?) which is the case @ present!!
Cambo Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 Colin - It is just that they have a policy and want to stick to it. The way to change it is to lobby. You can e-mail the members of the Committee and/or the Licensing Officer Yes I think that's worth a shot Aylestone voice if we can get enough people to do it?
stupidfrustration Posted July 23, 2014 Report Posted July 23, 2014 I know you all know my position on this - but ill say it again. IF food places get to stay open later - it may be a short term win, but in the long run, at this current time, it will NOT be good for the town, or the independent food operators. My understanding is there are NO new licences, or extensions to current licences and with the amount of people there are going out in Hereford right now, that is a good thing. IF the University comes to town, and we get 5000 new revelers in 5 years time, I would change my position. Be careful what you wish for.
Colin James Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Posted July 25, 2014 Colin - It is just that they have a policy and want to stick to it. The way to change it is to lobby. You can e-mail the members of the Committee and/or the Licensing Officer I think that is the case, I will be running another petition when I can get around to it and put more pressure on them because there is no real reason that hot food outlets cannot stay open, it seems that they cannot even operate and delivery only service, absolutely pathetic in my opinion.
Colin James Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Posted July 25, 2014 I know you all know my position on this - but ill say it again. IF food places get to stay open later - it may be a short term win, but in the long run, at this current time, it will NOT be good for the town, or the independent food operators. Why not?
stupidfrustration Posted July 27, 2014 Report Posted July 27, 2014 All in previous posts on this thread and to be honest my view is not popular - in short : Once one late night food establishment gets to open later - they all will - including McDonald's The majority of people out late will end up in McDonalds Too few customers for the local establishments to stay open profitably In the end McDonald's will be the only one open late. McDonald's are not local and it takes money out of our lovely town. Not a win for Hereford. Could go on more - but I risk becoming boring on this issue - right now - where we are at food wise is not a bad position with the money staying in the Hereford economy.
Bilbobobby Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I've only just read this debate - some of it is of interest. A lot of the opinions stated are inaccurate and to be honest a personal attack on organisation(s) by some who may have a personal gripe to air. However to assist - and this is fact... 1. Late night refreshment (LNR) is a licensable activity that requires a licence to sell HOT food between the hours of 11pm and 5am. 2. Any other sale of HOT food outside of these times does NOT require a licence 3. Sale of COLD food is not a licensable activity so therefore does NOT require a licence 4. All licenses are issued by Herefordshire Council 5. Any application for a LNR licence, once accepted by the council, is subject to a 28 day consulatation period that will allow responsible authorities and interested parties to make necessary representations - these can be against the application or in the case of a responsible authority (if they do not object to the application) representations (control measures) to promote the licensing objectives. 6. Any objection against the application has to be based on verifiable evidence (not opinion) 7. Any representation to have conditions applied to the licence have to be proportionate, achievable and enforceable. 8. The city centre is subject to a cumulative impact policy (zone)(CIZ) due to the contentration of licensed premises and the level of crime and disorder. This is the council's policy. They own it. It is supported by evidence submitted by the police. 9. The police do not have a blanket policy for licensed premises. This is unlawful. Each application is dealt with seperately and on its own merits 10. The CIZ only establishes a 'rebuttable presumption' with the consequence that any new application will be refused UNLESS the applicant can show how they will promote the licensing objectives, and consequently therefore to allow the application would not undermine the CIZ 11. If there are representations against an application it will end up at a licensing regulatory hearing, the panel of which make their mind up - based on what evidence is presented to them That's it a nut shell... In summary, there is no reason why any premises cannot apply for an LNR licence to sell hot food in Hereford City Centre after 1:30am, as long as they can evidence how they are promoting the licensing objectives and consequently how the grant would not undermine the CIZ. Simples...
Colin James Posted July 28, 2014 Author Report Posted July 28, 2014 All in previous posts on this thread and to be honest my view is not popular - in short : Once one late night food establishment gets to open later - they all will - including McDonald's The majority of people out late will end up in McDonalds Too few customers for the local establishments to stay open profitably In the end McDonald's will be the only one open late. McDonald's are not local and it takes money out of our lovely town. Not a win for Hereford. Could go on more - but I risk becoming boring on this issue - right now - where we are at food wise is not a bad position with the money staying in the Hereford economy. Actually I know the franchisee for Hereford McDonalds so it is local. It's about giving people choice and if people choose to go to McDonalds that is their choice.
stupidfrustration Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 You are correct Colin - it will be their choice - and sadly the locals will be forced to close due to lack of trade. Thats fine, BUT - you and others will end up with less choice than you have now. But hey - we can win and break the CIZ for food!
dippyhippy Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 I don't know about you lot, but it's been so hot at 1.30a.m lately, that the only food I would want would be an icecream with a flake from Mr Whippy, in his van! Would he need a late night license I wonder.......he could make a killing!!
Roger Posted July 28, 2014 Report Posted July 28, 2014 In summary, there is no reason why any premises cannot apply for an LNR licence to sell hot food in Hereford City Centre after 1:30am, as long as they can evidence how they are promoting the licensing objectives and consequently how the grant would not undermine the CIZ. Simples... I don't agree it is that simple ... I agree that you can apply ... Licensing Objectives: Prevention of crime and disorder Public safety Prevention of public nuisance Protection of children from harm CIZ is a big player here as we all know ~ as the area covered is the hot spot for where stuff happens. Saturated and I agree there ... But what more can the Hereford Charcoal Grill do if it wanted a later licence? The children aspect is a non starter as it don't apply so you are left with trying to sell kebabs by trying to reduce customers as all the revellers might go there! The argument is applied very subjectively I feel ...
George Armstrong Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 I don't agree it is that simple ... I agree that you can apply ... Licensing Objectives: Prevention of crime and disorder Public safety Prevention of public nuisance Protection of children from harm CIZ is a big player here as we all know ~ as the area covered is the hot spot for where stuff happens. Saturated and I agree there ... But what more can the Hereford Charcoal Grill do if it wanted a later licence? The children aspect is a non starter as it don't apply so you are left with trying to sell kebabs by trying to reduce customers as all the revellers might go there! The argument is applied very subjectively I feel ... Q. What more can the Hereford Charcoal Grill do if it wanted a later licence? A. Apply for a later licence, and in doing so explain what additional measures they would employ to support Licensing Objectives 1-3. This thread has gone about as far as it can, now. Bilbo has examined the procedures laid down by the Council and has explained them simply to everyone - thanks for that authoritative piece of work. Roger thinks the argument has been very subjectively applied - but it hasn't been tested at all recently, so his opinion is hypothetical. Colin suggests a petition, but until an actual application is made any petition is hypothetical. Stupid thinks that a relaxation will be exploited by multinational chain(s) which will wipe out the small local operator(s), which although hypothetical seems well-grounded by his clear understanding of the local late night economy. Now, to move this beyond hypothesis, a food provider needs to apply to the Council for extended hours...
Biomech Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Once one late night food establishment gets to open later - they all will - including McDonald's The majority of people out late will end up in McDonalds Too few customers for the local establishments to stay open profitably In the end McDonald's will be the only one open late. I just can't agree with this, it's ludicrous., McDonalds is open in the day - are Greggs across the road suffering? What about the Mokka Bar, Ascari's? How about Subway? They are a major global fast food corporation of the same ilk as McDonalds - why are you not arguing for them to close? On the same topic, Subway is open and yet the small "The Lunchbox" is rammed, so clearly having a big player open isn't that much of a disadvantage to local business. More food sources means a lower density of people per area, which, as we know from the facts, causes a reduction in violent outbreaks. What makes you think that the majority of people will go to McDonalds? Not only is it in the opposite direction of the main taxi rank for the area, it's also more expensive to the £pound when compared to something like chips. I'll be honest, I think you have a problem with McDonalds, maybe you're a fruitcake vegan (no pun intended) or you've had a falling out with McDonalds in Hereford, I don't know. But, in the nicest possible way, it is very clearly clouding your judgement.
stupidfrustration Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 McDonalds is open in the day - are Greggs across the road suffering? What about the Mokka Bar, Ascari's? How about Subway? They are a major global fast food corporation of the same ilk as McDonalds - why are you not arguing for them to close? On the same topic, Subway is open and yet the small "The Lunchbox" is rammed, so clearly having a big player open isn't that much of a disadvantage to local business. More food sources means a lower density of people per area, which, as we know from the facts, causes a reduction in violent outbreaks. What makes you think that the majority of people will go to McDonalds? Not only is it in the opposite direction of the main taxi rank for the area, it's also more expensive to the £pound when compared to something like chips. I'll be honest, I think you have a problem with McDonalds, maybe you're a fruitcake vegan (no pun intended) or you've had a falling out with McDonalds in Hereford, I don't know. But, in the nicest possible way, it is very clearly clouding your judgement. I wish I knew how to do this multi quote business! Biomech - thank you for the opportunity to give you my take : McDonalds is open in the day - are Greggs across the road suffering? What about the Mokka Bar, Ascari's? The day time trade is very different to the Night Time Economy. The age profile, the demographics and the needs of these people are totally different. To talk in general terms - day time customers 14 - 80. ​Some of the younger ones will go to say,,,,McDonalds, some of the older ones will go to Ascari's. On top the the type of customer being so very different - the quantity of customers are also very different. Hence - lots of people out in the day time to spend money and very few out in the night time ( apart from a Saturday night ). How about Subway? They are a major global fast food corporation of the same ilk as McDonalds - why are you not arguing for them to close? On the same topic, Subway is open and yet the small "The Lunchbox" is rammed, so clearly having a big player open isn't that much of a disadvantage to local business. A fair point, but Subway is famous for its mmmmm lovely hot Subway melts, or Mmmmm Meatball Subs. Not often have I ever had a COLD Sub - which would be more expensive than a cold sandwich from The Lunchbox. So - we are not comparing Apples with Apples here. Another question COULD be - why do McDonalds not open later now and just do their Salads, drinks and Ice Cream and Muffins? Im guessing its because its not really what they are known for - like with Subway and their COLD sandwiches. More food sources means a lower density of people per area, which, as we know from the facts, causes a reduction in violent outbreaks. You are absolutely right! Soo - in its current form, there are plenty of food places open, all selling cold food. My assumption, based on some knowledge is that in a small town, McDs will always beat the "local boys" in the late night food operations. Now - I personally think that its a sad reflection on society, but thats how it is. IF all the food houses were to open later - it is my view that shortly after that - there would only be one "winner" in the night time. What makes you think that the majority of people will go to McDonalds? Not only is it in the opposite direction of the main taxi rank for the area, it's also more expensive to the £pound when compared to something like chips. Because thats what happens in other towns that I have visited in the Night Time, and knowing what 18-30s are like - that in my view is what will happen here. I'll be honest, I think you have a problem with McDonalds, maybe you're a fruitcake vegan (no pun intended) or you've had a falling out with McDonalds in Hereford, I don't know. But, in the nicest possible way, it is very clearly clouding your judgement. Do you know what - I can see why you would say that. I honestly can. BUT 1 ) I am partial to the odd Big Mac or Qtr Pounder with Cheese myself. And they are very nice too! 2 ) I have NO axe to grind with McDonalds 3 ) I have concerns for the local, small business owners and feel "we" are being short sighted. 4 ) There are simply not enough customers in the Night Time Economy for them all to be able to stay open and make a living, now, bring along the "big boy" - open that till late with all the advertising, offers etc they will fight for the custom, undercut the locals and win the trade, forcing the locals to close - AND that is my issue. My issue is not even about choice, its about the local business staying open and employing people. These are just my views, what do I know? BUT - Hereford is safe, and all the business seem to be trading well ( ish ) right now, so why are we trying to change it?
Roger Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 BUT - Hereford is safe I just had the misfortune to see the smashed in face of my friends son who was in Hereford A+E yesterday ... 27 he is ... Another ridiculous assault at night in Hereford ... I won't share the photo's as the privacy was set to 'friends' on FB ... The problems are not food but the booze controls ...
Biomech Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 Haven't got time to read it all but quickly; To talk in general terms - day time customers 14 - 80. I doubt that you believe that McDonalds is a popular haunt for anyone over 60 :P Not often have I ever had a COLD Sub I've never had a HOT sub :P Let's not forget, in the past, these hot food places HAVE been open later - the chip shops, the chinese and kebab houses of Bridge Street. And they all survived! (Obviously Bridge Street is derelict now) In fact, there used to be A LOT more food places than we even have trading now. Union Street had about 5 kebab/burger places, Bridge Street, Commerical Road... and they never struggled for business! The big difference now - nighclubs are serving hot food. It's in the interest of the nightclubs to prohibit the sale of hot food away from it's own premises. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the nighclubs have a council backed monopoly on hot food. And, as we know, this is against anti-competition laws and monopoly laws.
stupidfrustration Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 Biomech The point about the age you have taken out of context. The context is this : Day time people who spend money - I am suggesting is aged 18-80. Night time people who spend money - I am suggesting is aged 18-30 Again, I am talking in general / majority of the trade terms. With regards to Hot / Cold subs - well, I left the door open for you to say that..................but you are missing out on the hot ones! And Nightclubs serving hot food? Well, I personally understand that it is better for people at 2.30 in the morning to get their food, eat it inside and then leave in a taxi and get home. Its safer/cleaner and no mess for the seagulls to eat up and being supervised by the clubs. The thing about monopoly - I also share your concern about that - but as mentioned above - Fusion/Play/Jailhouse - now a WORLDWIDE food name and Saxtys all offer food until they close. I honestly think - and I know many people disagree - but I think it is better to keep a load of small traders in business for the long term, paying staff/rent/rates the economy circle going round in Hereford, than letting the big national take the majority of the pie. I am fully aware it is a minority view on this thread, but thats where I am at.
Colin James Posted July 31, 2014 Author Report Posted July 31, 2014 Interesting HT article but I notice the 1.30am barrier is still the main obstacle! It will be interesting to hear the outcome but it's clear to me that it's even a struggle to get a licence until the 1.30am threshold let alone beyond it! HEREFORD’S late-night hotspot Commercial Road will have another new restaurant open into the early hours. SFS Off License, located at 60 Commercial Road, will be refitted to serve Indian and Italian food until 1:30am. It is the second premises, after the chicken shop Munchies, to have been granted a licence to serve late-night food in the area in the last two years, with the nearby noodle shop Wok and Rice also serving until 11pm since opening this summer. Commercial Road falls within a special licensing zone, and any new applications in that area must prove that they will not increase the likelihood of crime or disturbances by attracting late-night crowds to gather. However Varinderjit Singh, representing SFS Off License, agreed to use CCTV and employ door staff on Friday and Saturday nights to prevent any trouble. Herefordshire Council’s Regulatory Sub Committee granted Mr Singh a license following a hearing yesterday (July 30) and he hopes to open the restaurant within three months.
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