Old Market Hereford

[Guest maadlove7]

Without looking back to see old posts, as I'm only just catching up on here, has noone commented on listed buildings being seemingly airbrushed out of artist impressions. Seemed to me there is a lot of artistic 'licence' in the illustration on HT recenttly with no sign of the Farmers Club building or JDs opposite of Widemarsh Street?

.

[magicroundabout]

The salty looking red brick "backside" was cleaned in December as mentioned earlier in this thread.

However, I travelled past yesterday and was astonished at the huge amount of white salt blemishing markings which were apparent Everywhere on that red brick.

Horrendous!

What a disgrace!

A friend said the reason for the high salt content in the bricks was due to using cheaper sand from the "seaside", with sea salt content which can be the cause of visual efflorescence from leaching and worse - damp problems.  I don't know if this is true but it sounds plausible.

Seems the white markings will be a new constant feature for the future.

Sad for Hereford to show that "backside" view of buildings, just like an old unloved trading estate plonked into the inappropriate middle of a premium site, at one of the main thoroughfares of our city.

The view will undoubtedly spoil both tourists and shoppers experience, affecting the life blood of our community!

Too late now to change the design but there must be a way to improve the look of it for Hereford sake!

 

Any ideas ?

 

I wrote to Debenhams last week to complain directly to them about the state of the building.  No reply yet.

[twowheelsgood]

The forthcoming plethora of Debenhams signs (14 of 'em) will no doubt attempt to hide the efflorescence. At up to 14m x 2.2m, they should be effective at that if nothing else. They'll be internally illuminated to to add salt (ha) to the wound - despite a planning ban on all such signs in the City.

[Guest maadlove7]

Only just catching up with this thread as time does not allow me many explorations beyond the music/fb pages and campaigns :-) With the knowledge that it is unlikely we would get a bridge (and I do see Colin's point about UKs wet climate and in answr to Biomechs question about disabled access they could have allocated lifts either side of the road) we need to focus on traffic lights off and shared space.

 

More catching up to do on some other threads I see. :-)

[Biomech]

Biomech made a good point a while back about the attempt to superimpose something urban and inappropriately cutting edge on what is essentially a market town.  He's right.   When I'm coming up with interior design ideas for my clients, the first thing I advise is to go with the flow of the architectural style of the property.   Don't try to put a Rococo mirror in a one bed Bovis home or a heritage cistern in a thirties bungalow and it's the same with street design.  It strikes me again and again, as I look at the banal herringbone paving. 

 

 

Thanks :)

The problem is that they aren't designing to improve what we have, they are essentially retrofitting new metal and plastic to old timber. The conception of a Blade Runner city - and we all know how bleat that becomes.

 

[Biomech]

I had to read up on it more but it turns out it's exactly what I understood it to be.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

 

I can see how it COULD work and I can see the reasons of increase risk perception being valid. However, I must say, looking at the examples and driving around various cities for work, it's in those "shared spaces" where I've noticed traffic delays due to people not being clear on where they are going and pedestrians walking out into the street. The major problem you have here is selfishness. You tell the people of Hereford that they can walk where they want and cross the road whenever they like and they will purposely walk out infront of cars because they believe they have the right of way. Likewise, cars will push forward as they feel that they have the right of way. You CAN'T tell everyone, cars and people, that they can do what they want.

 

2 Particular places spring to mind; Bristol, where the roads are teeming with people standing in them and blocking traffic - this I see A LOT. And also there's a street in Birmingham where double decker buses come steaming through without slowing down. There is no distinctive "road" mark. All of a sudden, half the people stop dead, like Moses parting the sea.

 

Now this is fine if you live in Birmingham, I don't, consequently I got clipped by the bus. I mean hell, I was walking down the High Street with everyone else.

 

And that's another problem. Herefordians will get used to it, but the OLM is apparently trying to bring in to the city from elsewhere, they won't know about this.

 

In fact, when you imagine it, it could be argued that it creates a further segregation. Right now, to a tourist, there is a road with a crossing, there is more on the other side. Take away all of the crossings, road markings etc and you could very well mistake it for an unpassable road. If I wanted to contain the OLM, that is one of the ways that I would look at to do it.

 

Aesthetically, shared spaces are fantastic.

Practically, I can only see them being problematic

 

Sometimes you NEED to have defined separation. Imagine if they did this at an Airport, you'd have tourists driving all over the runway.

 

 

"Moody and Melia (2011).^[3] found that some of the claims made for shared space schemes were not justified by the evidence—particularly the claims that pedestrians are able to follow desire lines, and that shared space reduces traffic speeds. Their primary research in Ashford, Kent, suggested that in streets with high volumes of traffic, pedestrians are more likely to give way to vehicles than vice versa. Most people, but particularly women and older people, found the shared space intimidating and preferred the previous layout with conventional crossings."

 

You try following "desire lines" while shopping in Asda on Saturday...

[Biomech]

Finally to add, I've often considered the town centre to be "shared space", because you do get through traffic,whilst not"open to the public" you do get  DPS, post man, deliverys, securicor, market stall holders etc. We all get out of the way, of course. But these vehicles are going at what, 3mph? That's worse than the current 4mph traffic we have to put up with already.

 

Out of interest, there was a time, many years ago, when there were alot more cars coming through the center of town, 3-5 an hour or so. Now not so much and more commercial vehicles. Were we not encouraged to use the middle of town as a "shared space" and that idea since been given the boot with the added bollards?

 

In fact, if shared space is so great and the goal of the developers - why is Widemarsh Street closed throughout the day?

[Biomech]

Sorry to keep posting, just reading more.

 

"Shared space schemes for integrated street design – where segregation between cars, pedestrians and other road users are reduced or removed – have little benefit for street users, finds research led by Professor Rob Imrie from King’s College London"

 

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/newsevents/news/newsrecords/2011/03March/Sharedspacestudy.aspx

 

Everyone pushes the blind/deaf argument, but I believe selfishness and "racing the traffic" will be a big problem - it already is without telling everyone they can use the same space. Not to mention the lack of clarity as to where cyclists stand.

 

In Finland, planners are known to visit their parks immediately after the first snowfall, when the existing paths are not visible.^[1] People naturally choose desire lines, which are then clearly indicated by their footprints and can be used to guide the routing of new purpose built paths.

 

....social trails still penetrate these barriers. Because of this, state of the art trail design attempts to avoid the need for barriers and restrictions and instead seeks to bring trail layout and user desires in line with each other - both through physical design and through persuasive outreach to users

[Guest maadlove7]

Like any subject you will always have detracters ... specially from those with a vested interest in the machinary of intimidation .. street signs, lights everywhere, and pens. Yes, I said pens. Did you know they regard pedestrians as 'sheep.'   Well, baaahh humbug to them.

 

They will always post out misinfo. I found some about highly successful projects. Why? Because the powers that be don't like losing 'control.'

 

Noone should have priority because their vehicle is bigger or their money pile is even bigger!  Let's at least give this a try. Better than having only one show in town.

[Guest maadlove7]

Establishing desire trails should be encouraged ... why should pedestrians or cyclists be forced to go miles out of the way (they are the ones getting wet) to accomodate motorists in the warm and dry ruling the roads? I can't think of one good reason!

[ragwert]

Mean while work on the development is progressing fast    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8tLAwv1kE

[Biomech]

Noone should have priority because their vehicle is bigger 

 

 

 

It's not about people being forced to go different routes or people having priority. it's about common sense.

I'd much rather walk through a subway than across a 4+ lane dual carriage way - wouldn't you?

 

We don't let people walk on a motorway, we don't allow people to drive on whichever side of the road they choose and we don't allow children to walk around with automatic firearms.... for a reason.

 

I'm not saying I'm against shared space, I'm simply saying that I believe it promotes selfish behaviour. When the lights red, you stop and let people cross. Without traffic crossings or signs, there's no incentive for people to act appropriately, you WILL get people walking into the road because they think "shared space" means everyone has to stop for them and you WILL get drivers who won't allow people to cross because they don't want to have to keep hitting the brakes every 2 seconds because there is no specific crossing area.

 

I believe the cons outway the pros.

 

Again, if this is such a fantastic idea, why is Widemarsh street through to Broad street closed throughtout the day? 

 

Do you not agree that Widemarsh street *IS* shared space? No signs, no curbs, no crossings, no lights. We have shared space and the council chose to closed it off in the day for, I can only assume, safety reasons.

 

And what happens when it's open? People walk in front of cars, cars don't stop to allow people to cross, cars park on it. You can sit there in an evening and watch people have to dodge cars and cars having to dodge people - specifically the HSBC corner.

 

The evidence;

 

- We have spared space. The council chose to close it in the day.

- The shared space we have is a well known area for pedestrianss walking in front of cars (blind bend)

- While some drivers ARE more cautious, many still take the HSBC corner at speed with little regard to the people who might be in the road around the corner.

 

The evidence does not support the argument or the decision for shared space.

[Biomech]

I'm going to post this again because I think it's a very valid point that deserves some attention.

 

 

If shared space works so well, why is Widemarsh street through to Broad street closed throughtout the day? 

[Guest maadlove7]

I knew this would come up at some point .... Widemarsh Street is NOT properly instituted shared space, and might actually work if instituted as such .. it is merely a pedestrianised street opened to traffic at night.

 

Love the video Ragwert. .... :-)

[Biomech]

Widemarsh Street is NOT properly instituted shared space, and might actually work if instituted as such .. it is merely a pedestrianised street opened to traffic at night.

 

 

That's simply not true. Hightown is a pedestrianise area that is open to vehicles (commercial), the hightown area of Widemarsh street is, was and always has been a road for use by motor vehicles. The street was open for a long time before they decided to close it throughout the day. Whether officially sanctioned as a "shared space" or not, it exhibits all of the characteristics.

 

So how about this, why didn't the council "institute" as you say, widemarsh street as an official "shared spare" in order to research and analyze the effects of using this system before implementing it at the OLM end?

[Guest maadlove7]

Wrong! It does NOT illustrate shared space in any form ... they layout does not conform to those characteristics.

[Amanda Martin]

"You tell the people of Hereford that they can walk where they want and cross the road whenever they like and they will purposely walk out infront of cars because they believe they have the right of way. Likewise, cars will push forward as they feel that they have the right of way. You CAN'T tell everyone, cars and people, that they can do what they want."

Biomech, to be honest I agree with you to some extent, particular since in our culture we've got an ingrained assumption that drivers are the only ones who matter.   My experience (academic and having seen it all working in Europe) is that shared space works well in residential streets where traffic is slow moving and the onus is on drivers to stay out of the way of cyclists and pedestrians but even here there is a hierarchy: it just isn't the hierarchy we're used to in which drivers have priority and everyone else stays out of the way.  

In Dutch and German cities and towns there IS segregation and there IS a hierarchy of road users and with all due respect to Martin Cassini, who is not after all a transport planner by background, I think he has misunderstood the concept of shared space.   Shared space is "shared" insofar as redesigned streets give pedestrians and cyclists the courage to share them but it's not supposed to be a free for all.    That's not to say that the sharing of space in relation to "light off" schemes is any less effective; on the contrary it works very well but that's a different concept and doesn't benefit pedestrians and cyclists unless the road layout is re-engineered as at Poynton. Indeed, at the end of Martin's Portishead video, it's acknowledged that "further work" needs to be done to change cultural assumptions about who has priority - in other words the traffic was flowing better but peds and cyclists were still being blasted  off the road.

Based on my experience, in roads like Newmarket Street, Blueschool Street, Widemarsh Street and the A49 running from Asda to Newtown Road, there should be priority and that priority should be in favour of pedestrians and cyclists.  This is the only way to encourage people out of cars.   I don't  think, I know, that walking and cycling are being suppressed by our dangerous, hostile road conditions and road space reallocation gives a clear signal that cyclists have every right to be on the road, with or without their trailer, just as much as four wheeled traffic.   I know this works because I have seen it with my own eyes.    

[Biomech]

Wrong! It does NOT illustrate shared space in any form ... they layout does not conform to those characteristics.

 

 

and I quote;

 

 

"Shared space is an urban design approach which seeks to minimise demarcations between vehicle traffic and pedestrians, often by removing features such as curbs, road surface markings, traffic signs, and regulations."

[Biomech]

Biomech, to be honest I agree with you to some extent, particular since in our culture we've got an ingrained assumption that drivers are the only ones who matter.   My experience (academic and having seen it all working in Europe) is that shared space works well in residential streets where traffic is slow moving and the onus is on drivers to stay out of the way of cyclists and pedestrians but even here there is a hierarchy: it just isn't the hierarchy we're used to in which drivers have priority and everyone else stays out of the way.  

 

 

 

Yes and no. I don't think it's right, correct or far to blast car users for assuming that they own the road, that isn't the case.

 

ALL road users have this mentality, there are plenty of people who cross the road when and where they like, stepping out in front of traffic because "they HAVE to stop if I jump in front of them", likewise there is a certain type of cyclist who swerves and winds through lanes without looking, without signalling.

 

Now put all of those people along with the drivers who refuse to pander to abusive pedestrians and cyclists (and those who think they own the road) into one place and you effectively create a Thunderdome.

 

I agree that cyclists are scaremongered into keeping away from traffic. The answer isn't to call the road "shared space" and expect people to get along. They are widening Newmarket street as we speak - put cycle lanes in. 

 

I know that you'll agree that cyclelanes would give cyclists the safe space they deserve and the motivation to use their bikes while simulataneously giving a solid argument to accidents. Right now "he swerved in front of me mate" is about it, and what can you do? If someone says "that car was in the cycle lane and hit the bike" then it's substational and motivates drivers to consider that piece of road out of bounds.

 

Add to that specific crossing points at natural brakes in the traffic and you have pedestrians covered.

 

Look outside "JD's" and you'll see more people crossing the road because the traffic has stopped and backed up than you do you do when the lights actually change.

 

We come back to the age old topic - build on what you have, what works and don't waste time and money bulldozing things only to replace them.

 

Desire lines, natural gaps in traffic etc.

 

Again I must point out that I'm not "against" shared space, I'm just simply pointing out the problems it can create and potential alternatives for use and research.

[Amanda Martin]

I've just seen the comment about Widemarsh Street and agree with John:  pedestrianisation is not shared space.  

Pedestrianisation schemes became all the rage in the aftermath of Colin Buchanan's 1963 report "Traffic in Towns" which complemented perfectly the untold damage keeping Dr Beaching busy over on the rail network.  Buchanan's grand plan in the Sixties was to knock down our cities and rebuild them around the car,  creating entirely segregated routes for pedestrians, cyclists and free flowing traffic with people in convertibles and dodgy scarves enjoying the open road on flyovers.   Thank God, a number of folk had doubts about the wisdom of doing more damage than the Luftwaffe and the concept became a gimmicky, cut price, watered down ersatz version with every local authority in the country eager to put the wrecking ball into its beautiful old buildings to redevelop ancient centres into bleak wastelands of Brutalist concrete shopping centres, barrier bounded urban roads and multi storey car parks - feels familiar doesn't it?   High Town was Hereford's Buchanan inspired demolition job of much of what made the heart of the city attractive and now history is repeating itself with this pisspoor shopping centre more reminiscent of Winson Green prison than a development appropriate for a historic, intimate cathedral city.

 The problem with pedestrianisation is that it doesn't solve traffic problems; it just redirects traffic to the periphery where it must be accommodated just the same with roads and carparks.   Neither does it aid the businesses within the pedestrianised areas because walking distances can be significant and this is no joke when you're laden with shopping - at that point it becomes far easier to jump in the car that you've already had to jump into to get to drive into town, and just take it out of town where you can park next to the door.   

The answer is not to exclude  cyclists and buses but to give them access to all shopping areas.  With designated bus and cycle lanes everyone knows where they should be:  buses give way to cyclists and pedestrians, cyclists give way to pedestrians; speed and traffic volume are not a problem, God's in his Heaven etc.     

BTW interesting difference in cultural attitudes to the bicycle bell. In Holland it is considered polite and in the interest of safety to sound a warning but over here people take offence.   My bike has a very cool bell which I would like to use to warn people, strolling up the middle of the cycle path,  that I am approaching but I hesitate since I feel this could result in my being wrestled to the ground and strangled with my own hi vis illuminated strip.  

[Amanda Martin]

* Dr Beeching even 

[Biomech]

In curb drainage and cycle lanes would be a good idea, and, I believe, fairly cheap to execute

 

 

I also just found this which looks interesting;

[Biomech]

 

I take both of your points on board, but it does reflect the characteristics of shared space, it's just an area that has been converted rather than built from new.

 

Buchanan's grand plan in the Sixties

 

 

In all fairness, this "pedestrianisation" of widemarsh street through to broadstreet happened around the late 1990's/early 2000's 10 years after the idea of shared space was proposed. I really don't think that you can assume it was part of a 1960's ideology

[Biomech]

BTW interesting difference in cultural attitudes to the bicycle bell. In Holland it is considered polite and in the interest of safety to sound a warning but over here people take offence.   My bike has a very cool bell which I would like to use to warn people, strolling up the middle of the cycle path,  that I am approaching but I hesitate since I feel this could result in my being wrestled to the ground and strangled with my own hi vis illuminated strip. 

 

 

You'll have to get one of these :)

 

 

Now I really must do some work :P

[Biomech]

For what it's worth, I just discovered that; 

 

"Prior to the adoption of the term, street design projects carried out in Chambéry, France, by Michel Deronzier from the 1980 used the term "pedestrian priority"."

[megilleland]

Without looking back to see old posts, as I'm only just catching up on here, has noone commented on listed buildings being seemingly airbrushed out of artist impressions. Seemed to me there is a lot of artistic 'licence' in the illustration on HT recenttly with no sign of the Farmers Club building or JDs opposite of Widemarsh Street?

.

Stopped and spoke to a workman in the Farmers Club, Widemarsh Street today. He tells me the ground floor will be a furniture store and the upstairs a cafe. Also went into Argos to pick up some items and was told that they wanted to move to the OLM, but have been refused as OLM want only fashion shops there. Note that Coco's gift shop in Maylords has closed and is relocating to Church Street.

[chrisbull]

The shop Fit is moving along by Primark they are hoping to catch more trade when the new development opens.

[ragwert]

Fit are moving to Widemarsh St.They pay £2,000 a week rent where they are now

[Biomech]

They pay £2,000 a week rent where they are now

 

 

 

That's costing our local shops £104,000 in rent per year! You could buy a house for that.

 

Jesus christ, no wonder they are all closing. It always amazes me the way some of these shops stay in business, the jewellers who get maybe 2 customers a day, even places like Paperway before it went, you have to shift A LOT of stock to pay out 2 grand in rent, plus wages, plus insurance, plus overheads, expenses, gas, electric, water, tax.

 

You can't blame consumers for shopping online when most retailers are being forced off the street by extortionate rates.

[Colin James]

From this article in this weeks HT

 

APRIL 17 is D-Day for the much anticipated Old Market in Hereford, with eight companies circling the date in their diaries for their big openings.

 

Along with Waitrose, Debenhams, TK Maxx, Next, L’Occitane, Fatface, Clarks and Costa are all on track to open their doors on that Thursday.

 

Stanhope’s Gary Bourne said: “We’re excited to confirm the first stores will open their doors on April 17.

“More shops and restaurants – along with the new six-screen Odeon cinema – ¬ will open in the weeks thereafter.”

 

With fitting times varying from unit to unit, the development will operate a graduated opening, with H&M currently the final store set to open in Autumn.

 

Mr Bourne added: “We are pleased to report that Old Market is now over 90 percent prelet or under offer.

"And we look forward to announcing the next tranche of exciting retailers before the scheme opens in April.”